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| Author | May 21, 2011-End Of The World? |
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655I didn't find it, but this article is well written, by Americans, and says what I've been trying to say ,much better than I could.
http://www.eisenhowerinstitute.org/about/living_history/wwii_soviet_experience.dot
I'm not an American or Russian or Australian and I don't want to be part of this debate. I just have all the knowledge (whatever I have)about the WWII, from my school education.
No denying the fact that Americans did played a role, I always believed from that same education that Russians played the major role in WWII. But after reading this article and other related articles, my belief is further strengthened. This short article is enough to understand why the Russians call the "World War II" as their "Great Patriotic War".
Thanks for the link Barbarian-Fishy. | | well Many say world will end on 21 December 2012 :P | http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/2012.html
see this by NASA lol | | Wow, I got sucked in reading this thread. The Ego on both sides looked like it was blinding the the reality of the situation. I wanted more unbiased info and starting looking on the internet. After reading for longer than I care to track or admit I have shifted my opinions on the topic. With out support of the US the Germans would still not have been able to conquer Russia. The winter was too brutal and supply lines to far. Ultimately the Russians would have resisted the German invasion. Having said that I do not believe the Russians would have been in any condition to launch an effective counter offensive into the heart of Germany with out the The Us entering the war. The Us entering the war divided the Germans onto more fronts then they could handle and the hundreds of thousands of Trucks, Jeeps, Tanks, Aircraft along with an unfathomable amount of other supplies enabled the Russians to counter attack into Germany. | shame on YOU to let this topic fade!
ps: i'm available for politically incorrect statements - no insults, though.
ps2: when i said "YOU", i dunno who i'm talking about, really. | You haven't tried to counter the numbers I've provided. Russia killed 8 times as many Germans as the Allies did. How can you claim US involvement was critical when they did less than 10% of the killing?
Without the US, Russia still would have crushed Germany because Germany assaulted Russia in Winter and Russia were willing to sacrifice millions of men. You may consider it a BS way to win, but Germany failed to deal with the Russian Winter, and Japan, if it came to that, wouldn't have done any better.
I don't think you've paid enough atention in History class?
Do I need to remind you that at the start of the war ONLY 1 OUT of 10 Russian Soldiers had a gun? Leave alone bullets.. The soldiers had to wait until one fellow soldier with a gun died, before they could defend there selfs????
America secretly joined the war as early as 1940 by delivering supplies to GB and from there GB send it to Russia. I'll come back to this in a sec.
Without America Russia would be nothing, I repeat, NOTHING.
Dont EVER tell a history professor that Russia would have won without America, NEVER do that.
Yes you're right about stalingrad and the winter, but in open field the Russian could not even stand ground for a sec against the German Supreme Panzers, Infantry and luftwaffe.
Did you know that Russia sended 18 years old guys in airplanes against the Veterans of Germany who've been fighing for several years?
Did you know that one German Plain could easily destroy 10 Russian air planes?
Here read this, this guy shot down 352 RUSSIAN AIRPLANES. I say again, 352 RUSSIAN AIRPLAINES. 260 Were fighter jets, do you really think Russia would have won without America?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Hartmann
AND another one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Barkhorn
KIlled 314 Soviet Fighter Jets.
Or this one?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCnther_Rall
So these 3 guys, shot down almost 1000 USSR plains. These are only three names I know fersure. There are ALLOT more. Germany ruled the sky.
Did you know that the Russian tanks could't defeat a German Panzer Tank in fair fights?
Theres a story about one King Tiger German Tank located at a cross roads killing well over 40 Soviet T34 tanks before it was finally knocked out by infantry. The Germans focused on quality, the Russians focused solely on quantity . I'll search for this link later... Something I've read in one of my books about the wehrmacht..
Here's an aticle about the best Tank acer, East front, shot down 195 Russian Tanks in open field, crossroads even out flanking them three to one.. He shot all 3 Russian tanks with one shot, while the Russian bullets were like water on rocs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Knispel
There are dozens of these guys, you must think, 10 of these killed over 1500 Russian tanks?? I've been reading allot, the famest Russian tank commander killed at highest 5 Panters. And in the air they do not even get at 10 while the Germans get at 314.
Think about this? So you're still telling me that Russia would have easily beated Germany?
The best example here for is, compare this to the Spanish Armada in 1588. They had 556 ships ready to sail against Englands finest 50 ships.
Every one was convinced that Spain would vanish the 50 ships because they were with 10 times more. Is it necessary to tell you that ONE ship of England sunk more then 200 ships of spain? (Drake Francis)
Even thought it seems that Spain had the numbers, the supplies, the ships and the menpower?
Germany has way more discipline then Russia.
PS; You forgot to mention, Russia lost also 50% more casualties then America, not only in war, they didn't had any food.. All there food were supplies from America. | Mistakes Hitler made;
Mistake one; Trusting the Japanese Empire.
It was supossed to go like this. While Germany invaded Russia at the front, Japanese forces would come from behind making sure the Russian Forces couldn't do the same as they did againt Napoleon Bonaparte. (Napoleon was Hitlers Idol)
Japan was like in all of there wars, more interested in China and all those Islands. Russia Knew they we're going to be attacked from 2 directions so splited there armies. Japan promised that after the Philippines they would invade Russia. But, because America fought bravely here in the pacific the Japanese forces weren't ready for Russia, they had to deal with the Americans, Australia, etc first..
When Russia noticed this, they sended there entire army in a march against Germany. So acctualy, if Japan had some spare troops, they could have conquered allot of Russia without even a fight.
Mistake 2; Invading Russia
Even though Hitler knew the Japanese wouldn't keep there promise he tried to invade Russia. He thought he could because he had the supreme forces.
IF Germany didn't make this mistake, but just made a front against Russia at the end of there "Third Reich". They could heave easily beaten the Russian Forces in open field. If they had just defended there territory. The Russian plaines were no threat as were the Russian tanks.
If Hitler didn't invade, Russia would have lost wave after wave against the Germans Supreme defens.
Mistake 3;
Hitler knew all of the supplies were comming from America to GB and then from Great Brittain to Asia (Russia, pacific etc..). He realised to late, that he'd better had invaded GB instead of Russia. If he did this earlier and he succeed there would never even be a D Day or an Russian counter attack, Russia wouldn't get supplies, food, weapons.
America would not have the chance aiding with plains. Everyone knows there plains were all sended to GB.
Mistake 4;
Hitler was a genius, accept it or not, on matter of warfare then. He KNEW there would be an D Day. He thought it was going to be in Calais, France. Not at Normandy, France.
At Calais there were more then 3 Panzer Divisions waiting for the allies to arrive, allong with 7 infantry divisions. At Normany he only had 2 Infantry divisions and the reserve Panzer troops. So these 3 divisions were up to America, GB, France, all the allies, more then 30 divisions.
You've got to imagine, if Hitler would have send these troops from Calais to Normandy, there wouldn't be any D Day and the American forces would be defeated, hard. We'd all be speaking German then. (Because then they could have foccused 100% on Russia, it would take months for America to recover if they lost D Day.)
Why did America joined World War 2? I've seen that some guy said it was to show there true power to the world, I'm sorry this is in Vietnam you're talking about...
The true reason they joined was, America was a great Economic country with allot of trades with EUROPE. With out Europe there economic would certainly crash..
They knew that if Germany would prevail and conquer Europe, they would stop the trade with America. So America would get nothing from Europe and nothing from Asia. This could not happen, this is the MAIN reason for joining World War2.
(Accept against Japan)
The guy that says that America did nothing but ending it and throwing boms is just.. retarded.
Imagine, America would not aid in the Pacifics, Japan would easily conquer all those Islands, China didn't want to get involved in the war, makes it verry easy for Japan without America. So this means, after the Pacific war, Japan would be ready for Russia.
I'm curious.. If Russia would be invaded in the back and the front.. Do you still think they'd made it???? Damn man, you think to much of Russia..
Certainly Germany and Japan would have lost allot. But without supplies and food for the civilians, Russia would lose even more..
If you ask any History Pro | If you ask any History Professor wich country was the reall power, he'll answer.. Its not america, not GB, Russia or Japan..
Its definitly Germany. See it this way, one combat lvl 15 Full geared (Germany) against 3 lvls 14 (GB, America, Russia) and a bunch of other country's (All EUROPE).. Its means this one country fought against more then 12 country at the same time, so one CL 15 against 12 players and NEARLY won. If the mistakes weren't made, Germany would have definitly Prevailed. | You seem to be under the impression that pilots claimed kills correspond in any way to their *actual* kills.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_and_overclaiming_of_aerial_victories_during_World_War _II
You also seem to be under the impression that only Germany made significant mistakes in the war on the Eastern front. In actual fact Russia probably made more errors. And more *significant* errors at the start of the conflict. As you mentioned the Germans were more experienced at war and actually bungled things much less than the Russians. Considering that most of the Red Armys competent leaders had been removed only a few years earlier in the Great Purge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge#Purge_of_the_army
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_patriotic_war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_patriotic_war#Forces
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_patriotic_war#Conduct_of_operations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_patriotic_war#Results
And I totally agree with you on the quality of the German military machine. Yet you seem to think the Russian war effort, which caused 80% of the German losses in WWII, was somehow not significant?
Incidentally, Germany couldn't have performed a *total* invasion of Russia simply because they needed to keep troops to hold Europe.
Also Germany didn't defeat 12 countries "at the same time". You also seem to forget that Germany also had allies other than Japan (like Italy for instance).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_powers#Participating_nations
Perhaps you aren't seeing things as clearly as you imagine?
Grunge | Using game terms such as combat levels. Your hypothetical history professor has just given you an F.
I've conceded many of the points you've made.
"Yes you're right about Stalingrad and the winter, but in open field the Russian could not even stand ground for a sec against the German Supreme Panzers, Infantry and luftwaffe."
Which is why they chose not to have that fight.
"Did you know that the Russian tanks could't defeat a German Panzer Tank in fair fights?"
Yes. but the Russian's didn't fight fair. The one small thing Russian tank had over the Germans. They kept working when it went really cold. Only a fool does a "fair" fight.
Most people who complain about a "fair" fight actually want an unfair one. People say the Vietnam war, the Vietnamese weren't fighting "fair. Well, if the US stopped using all their helicopters, napalm, and tools the Vietnamese don't have, then I'm sure the Vietnamese would have fought fair too. But I digress.
Your Spanish Armada example is perfect.... For the Russia side of the discussion. The Spanish, just like the Germans thought the Russians would be a pushover. They were lazy (in a strategical sense) and didn't change their strategy when it proved to have flaws.
I also find your comment on Russian discipline farcical. Read up on the siege of Stalingrad. It would have been much easier to surrender. They didn't.
You are sort of correct. I did not mention that Russian lost 50% more than the Americans. It's not because I forgot, it's because it's wrong. I mentioned that Russia lost about 2000% more. That's part of my point. Russia won by spending millions of their population. It was a war of attrition.
Also check up on your history about Japan and Russia. WWII for Germany was all about old gripes, revenge, and slightly about resources and Lebensraum. For Japan it was all about land and resources. Indonesia, SE Asia and China is much more lucrative than Russia. Japan was never going to assault Russia with any real strength.
D-Day worked better than it should but at the point of D-Day, the victors were already decided, the only question was when.
Back to the original point. We will never know for sure if Russia would have stood against Germany without lend lease. With history you can't go back to the last save point. Considering that no supplies could get to Stalingrad for a long time and that was the break point for Germany on the Eastern Front, lend lease had very little impact there. Russia counter attack would have been weaker and slower, but I still think that Russia would have won without lend lease.
I also find this hilarious.
"Without America Russia would be nothing, I repeat, NOTHING.
Dont EVER tell a history professor that Russia would have won without America, NEVER do that. "
Sorry for offending the one eyed Yankee History Professor. I would recommend that on a server with lots of Russians, you don't suggest that there 20 million dead in the Great Patriotic War was nothing, and that it was American help that won the war.
1. It's offensive
2. It's wrong
Don't worry though, you have your chance for glory now. America was late for both world wars, but they've been on time for most of the others in the 21st century. They declared them because it was in their best interests to do so. Oh Wait. There''s no glory in napalming children, dropping agent orange on forests and incorrect drone strikes on Weddings. Oh well. You still get glory in the Olympics. | nd I totally agree with you on the quality of the German military machine. Yet you seem to think the Russian war effort, which caused 80% of the German losses in WWII, was somehow not significant?
If those 80% are being killed by hunger and cold or anything else its not that stunning..
I always learned and still learn kiddos that Russia is the country that sendend 500.000 soldiers to war at stalingrad with only 75.000 weapons. It was just a blootbath..
"Did you know that the Russian tanks could't defeat a German Panzer Tank in fair fights?"
Yes. but the Russian's didn't fight fair. The one small thing Russian tank had over the Germans. They kept working when it went really cold. Only a fool does a "fair" fight.
Good, so you're point is the Russian only won because of the cold winter, thats fine with me, stick with this and don't change mind after 5 minutes.
I also find your comment on Russian discipline farcical. Read up on the siege of Stalingrad. It would have been much easier to surrender. They didn't.
Running with 500.000 soldiers at Germans lines without a gun is really not discipline. Its called chaotic warfare, because the Russian army had no idea who there dealing with and thought numbers (like in most wars) counted.
Your Spanish Armada example is perfect.... For the Russia side of the discussion. The Spanish, just like the Germans thought the Russians would be a pushover. They were lazy (in a strategical sense) and didn't change their strategy when it proved to have flaws.
You're seeing it wrong, wat I ment was, the Spanish armade had 556 ships, but those ships were quickly built what ment it was easy to make a whole in them by the well builded Englisch(Pirate) ships. Half of the time the cannons wouldn't even shoot cause they were made to quickly. Seems like what happens in Russia at the first wave a stalingrad.
The Russians weren't prepared for war, there tanks were full of mistakes and not built wel. On the other hand the Germans were prepared and there tanks had no mistakes.
That's part of my point. Russia won by spending millions of their population. It was a war of attrition.
Then we both agree on that, fersure it isn't the most popular way to win a war.
Also check up on your history about Japan and Russia. WWII for Germany was all about old gripes, revenge, and slightly about resources and Lebensraum. For Japan it was all about land and resources. Indonesia, SE Asia and China is much more lucrative than Russia. Japan was never going to assault Russia with any real strength.
Thats what I just tolded you, Germany was indeed about revenge, revenge against Franc, Great Brittain and America. For making the contract Versailles.
The ones who came with this idea were the Brits and the Americans, so if you tell me that Germany saw England in WO2 as an ally, then you're completly wrong.
Japan was like i told, more interested in Lands etc.. BUT still as I've mentioned the deal was invading Rusia in the back, the yanks kinda ruined this. Who'd knew if they would have done it? Perhaps or perhaps not..
Considering that no supplies could get to Stalingrad for a long time and that was the break point for Germany on the Eastern Front, lend lease had very little impact there. Russia counter attack would have been weaker and slower, but I still think that Russia would have won without lend lease.
I also find this hilarious.
"Without America Russia would be nothing, I repeat, NOTHING.
Thats my main point, during Staling more then 15 milion people died because of the lach of food.. If America wouldn't have supplied GB and from there to Russia, Russia would perhaps have 30% more casualties and perhaps even lost the war.
Dont EVER tell a history professor that Russia would have won without America, NEVER do that. "
Sorry for offendin | Dont EVER tell a history professor that Russia would have won without America, NEVER do that. "
Sorry for offending the one eyed Yankee History Professor. I would recommend that on a server with lots of Russians, you don't suggest that there 20 million dead in the Great Patriotic War was nothing, and that it was American help that won the war.
1. It's offensive
2. It's wrong
I don't care on what server I play? IMO a country as Russia isn't that "great".
I'd rather be saved by the yankies then by the communist Soviet union.
America restored the "saved" countrys in there formal state again. So I'm happy the Brits saved us. While at the other site, all the countrys that Russia "Saved" were freed of German occupation but then again captured again by the Soviet Union. They didn't restore anything back to right?
In the years that followed millions of innocent people died to, during the Communist Russia. Country's as Poland etc, were living like the Soviet Union wanted them to, if they didn't agree well, simple..
After WO2 the only country breaking the law of Genéve was Russia, time after time after time.. WIth millions of deaths again.. Mnay people don't know this..
So sorry, for my opinion Russia as country is worth nothing.You seem to be under the impression that pilots claimed kills correspond in any way to their *actual* kills.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_and_overclaiming_of_aerial_victories_during_World_War _II
You also seem to be under the impression that only Germany made significant mistakes in the war on the Eastern front. In actual fact Russia probably made more errors. And more *significant* errors at the start of the conflict. As you mentioned the Germans were more experienced at war and actually bungled things much less than the Russians. Considering that most of the Red Armys competent leaders had been removed only a few years earlier in the Great Purge.
Thats why I said that they shot down 365 plains and not killed. | Without America Russia would be nothing, I repeat, NOTHING.
So using your logic, since the US supplied Russia with Equipment, apparently rendering the Russian achievements insignificant, then what of the UK?
The UK received 3 times as much Lend Lease support as Russia did. If Russia, having caused 80% of Germany casualties, is considered as having effectively contributed nothing because of US support, then the UK must surely rate as an Axis contributor by your measuring stick. After all, the UK received 3 times the support and probably didn't inflict more than around 10% of the total German casualties.
In fact why not take it a step further? France and Spain (and others) provided military assistance in the American War of Independence.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War
By your reasoning that makes them responsible for winning that war and pivotal in the formation of the US. Presumably this means they can claim credit for all future US military accomplishments. By using a feat of rationalisation not too dissimilar to yours, I can claim that the French actually won World War 2 simply because they contributed to the US war effort all those years ago.
And incidentally -
So these 3 guys, shot down almost 1000 USSR plains. - Post # 666
Thats why I said that they shot down 365 plains and not killed. - Post # 672
Oops! Nice job of contradicting yourself.
Thats my main point, during Staling more then 15 milion people died because of the lach of food.. If America wouldn't have supplied GB and from there to Russia, Russia would perhaps have 30% more casualties and perhaps even lost the war.
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/LL-Ship/LL-Ship-4.html - scroll about halfway down or search on Subsistence
The Russians never received any food directly as a result of the Lend Lease program. Although they did get 87K gallons of alcohol. :S
So your 30% more casualties speculation is clearly misguided.
Have Fun
Grunge | Just got this from one of my subscriptions in YouTube and I thought this might be remotely relevant to the discussion. Seems like even the Germans liked some Russian rifles a lot. Not really interested in this discussion, just want to point out that the Russians did make some fine guns. And a lot of them too.
Yeah, I like guns. XD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9m3FAcFLGA | I guess the topic was - May 21, 2011-End Of The World?
And where did we reach - World War II :p | Post 673 doesn't excist, oops, seen you're post before how you bitch on other players, so gonna ignore you.
Have Fun
Grunge
Thanks, sure will, have fun trying to argue me.
Yeah, I like guns. XD
I like guns to hahaha, Acctually I like al kind of weapons.. Ancient and modern..
I've got a 350 year old katana at home and a Medieval Crossbow! Bought it as antique, just loveeeeeeee it!
AND YES after 350 years its stil sharp XD
I guess the topic was - May 21, 2011-End Of The World?
About the maya's, I just think there the weirdest people that ever lived on this planet earth.. They had SO many strange habits..
Not to mention the weird images scientist found that they made..
We'll guess we'll found out within 6 months if there were right!:)
Little fun fact; I saw a documantry about people who really believed the earth would fade in 2012 and these people were just.. crazzy.. Building bunkers with there life savings, buying food wich they can use 20 years after 2012.. Damn that was REALLY strange.. | | This topic got too hot. I am closing it because of the risk that it will go further onto disrespectful comments, insults or national intolarance. If particular players want to discuss about history, you are free to PM each other. | | closed by Lord BrownBear (2012-08-28 01:47:33) |
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