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| Author | Problem with people abusing min-AP described fights |
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lol omega, you can ask ALL people i fought in groupies that i did never do so at any time!
The problem about my spine to show i have one is: i had never the chance to wait (or do any other balancing action) in a fight where i joined against description, because i just have a very nice ability, i can READ. That prevents normal people from abusing, and of course from showing their spine. Sorry for that. | i'm supportive of ravensclaw stance, homemade rules are just that, homemade.
As such, since i'm *not* playing at your home but in an open enviroment, i don't feel especially compelled to uphold to them.
strictly talking, i would respect them *if* i joined said games with min AP description etc etc, but i don't envision those who disrepect that as evildoers, because a PVP enviroment rotates around the principle of having an advantage.
I'll make an example, from time to time there is the odd group battle of for istance 1level6 against 3 level 3 with description (3+3+3>6 :) ).
Now anyone with a bit of brain realizes that three level 3 have no change in hell of beating the level6 that created the group battle.
on this point of view, conceptually talking whoever set up a "min AP only" group battle is doing the SAME thing as the level6vs3level3 : he's stacking the deck on his favor.
May i remind a, imho, very good web article: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw
the section "cheap!" spring to mind :) | | directly from what i link, that pretty much is my stance on the matterlabels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” This “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone is often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn’t attack. As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. | In my eyes all fights should be equal and only depend on tactics and skill, not on unfair advantages, wherever they may come from.
Meaning: If you don't have to think a bit, just rush in and are overpowered strong, your enemies have not the slightest chance, so that it is not even worth fighting, then you should not join. These fights are not fun for anyone (and games are here to have fun, as far as i know), boring and mainly make all players upset.
For this now, i would like to make a suggestion for game environmental change (happy that its in "IaS" ^^):
It would be nice, when fighting groupbattles, to have the possibility of choosing who gets to read what you write. Something like "friend chat" and "all chat" or so. It would give the possibility to act without the enemy team knowing.
At the moment teamspeak or something similar is the only thing to achieve that, whereas nearly every game has the possibility of choosing "channels". | Meaning: If you don't have to think a bit, just rush in and are overpowered strong, your enemies have not the slightest chance, so that it is not even worth fighting, then you should not join. These fights are not fun for anyone (and games are here to have fun, as far as i know), boring and mainly make all players upset.
i'd go with the axiom that winning is fun, losing is not.
what you probably mean is "satisfation" on winning a close-call battle or even a battle you( you as general, not you as you) are unfavored.
"all fight should be equal" is an utopia and a concept extraneous to PVP.
At most there is balance, but balance is already taken account on artifact with the level limit, again self imposed "min AP" is just that, a self imposed advantage to your opponent, an opponent that isn't doing something unfair if he doesn't respec your costructed set of principles that states "i created this PLAYER versus PLAYER group battle therefore it should be conducted by the rules I set( to my advantage i omiss to say) instead of the rules the GAME set).
respecting them is as stated already a matter of good manner, but not respecting them isn't either a break of game rules nor an "unfair" thing to do,i would dare say on a more grim way that whoever creates such games with AP limitations and get bashed by full art got what they deserved to get | In my eyes all fights should be equal and only depend on tactics and skill, not on unfair advantages, wherever they may come from.
i agree
"all fight should be equal" is an utopia and a concept extraneous to PVP.
not true!
i played many fair battles. all it takes is 6 fair players. and yes, those were the best times i had in LordsWM
i can actually name 10 players that were always fair. you can feel free to invite them to GB (if you ever get to be same level as they are)
battles depend on luck factor too much already. it creates enough imbalance alone. | "fair" is everything that is within the rule set by the game.
i could go as far as stating that imponing a "min AP only" is an unfair behavior, because it prevent part of the community from partecipating :), all a matter of perspective.
more than fair, we should talk about good manner | "fair" is everything that is within the rule set by the game.
in my book of words fair is something else.
and we need to discern those two. 'cause when i said all it takes is 6 fair players i meant really fair, not "fair" as within the rule set by the game
and my "fair" doesn't necessarily involves good manners.
play as you like, but don't spoil my battles if we cross paths, 'cause i don't like to waste time on imbalanced battles.. even if "betrayer" is on my side. | I agree whit ciopo "fair" is everything that is within the rule set by the game
Hunts, labor, merc quest, enchanting, repairing, thieving, they are all big part of this game. Exploiting this part of the game is essential for getting the advantage in PvP fights. You can't forbid players who actually play the game not to use their hard gain gold to bay and use arts.
Whole purpose of arts in this game is for someone to have an advantage.
Of course it is a different matter if players search this kind of battles hoping that everyone will obey the wishes of the creator of battles, and that they will gain the advantage just because people have good manners. | hold on, i'm not advocating my behavior, in fact, i'm more of a pve player and when i do the odd duel here and there i usually go with minimun AP myself :)
What i'm eagerly against is the implementation of homemade rules, trying to enforce them by calling "cheap" or "unfair" those who don't stick to them, while they are all *entitled* to do so.
I mean, m let me make an example.
Do you play WoW or any other MMO?
well, suppose you are in a PVE server ok?, you are say low level, for whatever reason you turn your PVP flag on, perhabs because you want "fair" pvp against people the same level of you.
An high level passes by, see you, and decide to collect the free pvp points you provided him.
Now, you are depicting his compportament as unfair, when in reality you got what you deserved to get by turning the pvp flag on: ganked by someone way more powerful than you | | disclaimer: i use "got what you deserved to get" as a figure of speech, i don't actually mean it :) | just my 2 cents:
i agree that is a matter of good manners the fact of obeying "homemade" rules or not. Im against some rules which neglect factions or diamond users, but i can see the point on asking for some AP requeriment. There can be several reasons, hope that is obviuos enough so dont need to explain that.
Anyway, entering full arted in a battle with some type of AP restriction, only can mean few things imo:
· Player dont notice the description, this is solutioned by a simple apologize.
· Player is a coward who doesnt dare to fight ppl who can beat him, and only know how to bully ppl who is not prepared enough.
ofc, all a matter of good manners, but dont expect sympathy by doin that type of thing on purpose. | It can be very fun when you lose, aswell. The fun comes from "wow, this fight i was SO good, my actions were perfect and my tactics brilliant", the feeling of the win, the satisfaction that you owned your enemy, maybe even a slight feeling of superiority (everyone feels superior, thats why we join a battle). Thats the "fun" i mean, and this fun is not about winning or losing. Of course a win is better than a loss, thats why we fight ;)
But a win that is not deserved, maybe cuz of bad mistakes of the enemy (missclick or short moment being unconcentrated for example), overpower of oneself (like as we talked about in here, or a barb against a casting wizard) or because afk people, is not satisfieing as much as a good fought loss.
"All fights should be equal" was meant as "should be as equal as possible".
Why do you think when opening a min-AP game there has to be an advantage for the host? The artifacts are for all people exactly the same and so are "no arts" aswell. Unless betrayers join its as equal as possible :P
Not respecting description is not a break of gamerules, thats right but its not good that way. and of course its unfair, maybe you should overthink your definition of fairness my friend.
Is it fair when you want to buy something and the cassier just says "Oh, for YOU this costs double as much than normal", wouldn't you feel betrayed/backstabbed/cheated/kidded? But it would be no rulebreak, because prices are free to be set by the shop.
Where is the problem with wanting a specific group only to fight? There are clans that make that possible, why can't it be possible this way too, with no spineless people to join?
Everyone can create a game. When there is no game open with the conditions you want, why not open one yourself? Then no game is destroyed and all are happy (in your case only if you win).
"Whole purpose of arts in this game is for someone to have an advantage."
No, thats not all. Arts increase xp/sp gain, they can be different dependant on your tactics and they cost us all money, so admins hope to have us spending some diamonds. For higher levels its the enchantment that counts and the maximum durability of the art to have a long benefit of your art. Best example (on .ru server): i once saw a special hammer on 1st player on .ru server (couldn't find it on market or anywhere there now) with very much durability but no increases on anything.
Your MMO-example: You pointed out that it can be similar like here in other games. But ... why not change it here, when it is so easily changed? In most MMOs foul language is just muted, so when you type such a word you just don't say anything. And even IF you name him anything unfriendly then you don't get fined. But here, in this game, a clearly abusing person has the gutts to report the ones he betrayed for being angry, whereas its their godgiven right to be angry cuz they were cheated/betrayed/ganked/made fun of/abused... Sorry for saying it again :P but this topic was opened by my brother not for what we talk about right now, but for the funny/unlogical penalty imposing for angryness, not even an insulting one.
Agreed with chakkal2001 :) |
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