Forums-->General game forum-->
1|2
| Author | Twin Towers Game - Random? |
|---|
Hi all,
Here I am again serving my 1-hour TG penalty. haha..
Anyway, this is to discuss about the 'randomness' of the Twin Tower card game.
I have played more than 2000 games and on many occasions, I have went 5-6 games consecutively where,
- I/my opponent didn't get a (blue) tower or (red) wall card for between 10-20 turns.
- I/my opponent get 3-4 +/- mines or monastery cards in SUCCESSION.
Now, frustrated at what I have seen from a program that's supposed to be 'random', I went and took a deck of cards, shuffled them, and turn the top 10 cards over. I did it for 100 times. - Not once did I see all 10 of them being of 1 color, either red or black(!?)
I did another 100 times of shuffling and turned the WHOLE deck over and see what's the longest streak of same colored cards there was. -
- 7 cards of the same color (red or black)anywhere in the deck. - 1 time
- 6 cards of the same color (red or black) anywhere in the deck. - 3 times
Given such figures, I simply finds it hard to believe that me or my opponent can go 10-20 turns without drawing a particular color card..... not 1 game, but 5-6 games in succession !
I even had 1 game where I counted I went 22 turns (yes, TWENTY TWO) from start to finish, without a red wall card (!!)
I don't play the Roulette a lot, but I have read that the same number appearing as the winning number for 3-5 times in a row, or the same color being the winning color for more than 10 consecutive spins is very 'normal' here.
I'm not complaining, since I have both benefited and suffered from such 'randomness'. Just sharing my opinion and wants to hear what other players who have played lots of TT (and maybe Roulette) thinks about the 'randomness' of the game(s) here.
My personal opinion? - Random? Ermmm.. I don't think so. :)
*Heads back to game to start another ambush..* | Well i just played a card game on the RU...And i got 4 + mine cards followed by 3 + monastery cards.
I ended up with resources at 6/5/2 while my oppenent had 2/2/2.
IN the end he still won but i dont believe its random the cards that are thrown out.
Example:
Me and straws played some matches the other day. The first match i drew 2 dragons at the start ended up winning. The next match he drew one dragon i got none. The match after i drew exactly the same 2 dragons on my start hand!!! | - I/my opponent get 3-4 +/- mines or monastery cards in SUCCESSION.
Just to add -
If I'm not mistaken, There are supposed to be 1 each of a particular card in each TT deck. +20 Tower (Dragon Eye) etc. I had more than 1 game (maybe 3-4 times) where I took 3 x Dragon Eyes in succession.
If you add 4 decks of cards (there will be 16 Aces in the deck), and shuffle them randomly, and try to get 4 Aces ( out of 16) to be clustered together, the chance is VERY, VERY remote. You may do it till you are 60 years old and still never see it happening.
Here, each deck is supposed to have only ONE 'Ace', and yet I kept seeing myself drawing the same card 2-3 times in a row (infinite deck).
NOT random. :) | Random
but random generator is very weak | Now, frustrated at what I have seen from a program that's supposed to be 'random',
Its not supposed to be random. Its supposed to make you really, really angry, kicking the computer. Maybe some evil plot from computer companies, wanting you to buy a new computer after you kick your old one. | Lol @ 5. I never play roulette, but i do like the TT-game. But, being lvl 9, i still lose almost half my games, simply because of bad luck. There's almost no strategy possible.
It would be better if the cards really were random and not the computer thinking: let's let that player win and give bad cards to the other.
About the streaks: I've never counted it, but 15 turns without a red card is not unusual. | To Jedi-Knight: What you said dont proof nothing.
For example, i have one chance in one milion of be achieved for an thunder.
But i can be achieved...
At last month on Brazil, 4 peoples was achieveds for thunders... more that the number of cases in the last 5 years. | for Jedi-Knight:
If I'm not mistaken, There are supposed to be 1 each of a particular card in each TT deck
You are mistaken :°
There is an option, "infinite deck" that allow for multiple cards of any kind. Just watch out for the small red infinite symbol when accepting a challenge.
Also, your opponent didn't necessarily obtain the cards he/she plays all at once; it might simply be a strategical choice to keep them until he has several of the same type, in order to chain effects. | Also:
Now, frustrated at what I have seen from a program that's supposed to be 'random', I went and took a deck of cards, shuffled them, and turn the top 10 cards over. I did it for 100 times. - Not once did I see all 10 of them being of 1 color, either red or black(!?)
Yes, but did you consider that when playing you get 1 card out of 2, and sometime you reverse the distribution order yourself with the "play again" cards? Things are not always what they seem at first.. :) | For infinite decks, one cannot check how many cards of the same color and s.o.s.f. one can get in a row. Even at blackjack where you have a limited number of decks (depending on the dealer's rules), you can get few cards of the same type in a row. That doesn't mean they are not shuffled well. It's probabilistic. If you want to increase the chances to get the cards better "shuffled", you have to play 1 deck games.
Anyway, related to the probability distributions used in this game, I concure with those who said the distributions are weak. I suppose this is a bug the admins should take care of. | You are mistaken :°
I asked in the forums before, there is only 1 of each type of card in a TT deck.
There is an option, "infinite deck" that allow for multiple cards of any kind.
If I'm not mistaken, There are supposed to be 1 each of a particular card in each TT deck
For example, i have one chance in one milion of be achieved for an thunder... ..At last month on Brazil, 4 peoples was achieveds for thunders... more that the number of cases in the last 5 years.
Exactly, you said so yourself.. 1 chance in a MILLION. 4 people being struck by lightning in a month happened ONCE in 5 years. If I, or my opponents, had went 20 cards without getting a blue/red card once or twice a week, that's normal. It happens, just like your lightning example. But if you go 5-6 games IN A ROW without taking a tower/wall card for 10-20 turns, that's NOT normal/random.
It's like your example - If for 5-6 days in a row, 4 people are struck by lightning everyday, is that normal? Has it happen in your country or anywhere for the last 50 years? 100 years? Do u get it now?
I'm not saying what I saw won't ever happen, but that the chance of it happening again, and again, and again, is not NORMAL/RANDOM, and definitely not 1 in a million. :)
And no offense to you, Vengful, but if you had played a total of only 22 TT games, how do u know what is 'normal' or not in a TT game here at Lordswm?
Anyway, like I said in my first post, this thread is to hear what those that have played a lot of TT games here feel about the random generator that's used here.
Like I said, I have both suffered and benefited from this 'randomness', and I'm still winning overall (touch wood) in TT games, so I ain't complaining. :) | for telca:
It's like your example - If for 5-6 days in a row, 4 people are struck by lightning everyday, is that normal? Has it happen in your country or anywhere for the last 50 years? 100 years? Do u get it now?
Just so you (or anyone reading this misunderstood what I meant - What I'm trying to say is that I agree with Uliss and others who have said that the random generator used in Lordswm is very weak. And I was just using some of the stuff you said as an example. :) | i didn't explain myself properly ^^'
There are supposed to be 1 each of a particular card in each TT deck
And here we go again with probability.
in a one deck game: you have 1 card of each type, so once one has passed, it will take some time before you see it again (altough i checked some time ago, and the deck is not recomposed according to the pass of cards -that is, if players use/discard, say, dragon, magic mounain, ogre; then you might as well get magic mountain or ogre before you see a dragon again, as if the lower part of the deck was continuously shuffled).
There are approximatively between 40 and 65 cards, in a deck (i did count once, but can't remember, really, sorry ^^'), for mind's sake we shall take 60 as working number: so let's say you have 1 out of 60 chances to get a given card in a single deck game.
Then you say: "so, in an infinite deck composed, by, say, 4 decks, i get 4 out of 240 chances to get that same card".. Right?
Well, no, you don't :D
Because, the fact that it is "infinite" deck, means that, yes, you get N out of N*60 chances to get the given card.. but "N" being an infinite number.. you see where it points?
All in all, in this kind of game, you can even get a full hand composed by the same card (once i got 4 "switch wall", and my opponent got one as well :D), and still you will be in the average distribution of randomness.
This said, probably the algorithm has been a little arranged to avoid stale games, where nobody can play for ages.
In this optic, i guess, developpers might have implemented some limit rules to allow the endgame to actually happen in a reasonable lapse of time.. | Tell me, why does the fact that the random generator is weak matter?
You two each have the same chance of getting many cards in a row. What might happen to your opponent can happen to you. It's still fair. | #12
sorry Jedi, but I really, really reallyreally didn't understand that post :)
^^" | This said, probably the algorithm has been a little arranged to avoid stale games, where nobody can play for ages.
In this optic, i guess, developpers might have implemented some limit rules to allow the endgame to actually happen in a reasonable lapse of time..
Hmm.. that's an interesting theory, and I agree with you that there could be some level of truth in that. :)
Tell me, why does the fact that the random generator is weak matter?
You two each have the same chance of getting many cards in a row. What might happen to your opponent can happen to you. It's still fair.
? I don't think anyone said anything that implied that it mattered to us. This is the general game section, and expressing our opinion is what this section of the forums is about (or at least that's what I gathered anyway. haha..), as some of us are in doubts if our thoughts are shared, or different, from other players who are playing here.
But for the sake of discussion - I'm pretty sure most of us spend our precious time logging in and playing various aspects of this game. Some spend enormous amount of hours doing so. And I believe it's not too much to ask that the game mechanics and goals are at least reasonably fair/random/achievable or whatever for all of us. :) | sorry Jedi, but I really, really reallyreally didn't understand that post :)
^^"
Haha.. it's all right. No problem. :)
Basically, what I'm saying is that the probability (a concept I understand fairly well) of what I have seen happening (not getting a particular colored card for 10-290 turns, not in 1 game, but 5-6 games in succession) is way, way above the law of probability. :)
Just to share something with all:
I played a game not too long ago where my opponent had my mines and monastery down to 0, and all I had was my barracks, which I was taking 5 stacks per turn. My opponent had built his tower to 41, and a wall like the great wall of China.
I won, you know why? I got 4 x -12 green tower cards in the next 5 turns! Though I won, I really felt bad for him.. | hum.. i see your point, now.
The thing is that you are not abstracting from reality.
Probability works differently in an infinite system than it does in a finite one (like the ones you can build with several decks IRL).
In an infinite system, wich can only exist virtually, there are only 2 possibilities:
Either an event has an infinite chance of happening, (that is, it can happen in any case),
or
it has a finite chance of happening, thus.. it will never happen!
Think it this way: if you had an infinite amount of even cards, and you put one odd card in it, how many chances would you have, after shuffling, to get the odd card out of the deck?
answer:
1 - 0,999...
(read: 1 minus 0,999, where 9 is repeated infinite times)
Wich any math geek can tell you, means absolute zero.. :D
To explain it a little better, think of the recent discussion about roulette: if, before the system, you can say that there are little chances to have 20 times a same color out in a row, once you get it out 19 times, there still are 45% chances to see it out on the next hit.. well, here is the same thing.
After a card is drawn, there are exactly the same amount of chances that it will come out again immediately after;
And after a game with all green or all reds has been played, there are exactly the same chances that next game will be all green or all red.
All this, because in an infinite system everything is infinite, including the repeatidness (<-not sure this word actually exists ^^) of events :) | #18,
And I agree with you there, which is why when I start a game, I always make the deck infinite, coz (in my own twisted warped way of thinking), I believe that if there's only 1 of each, and the program decides to play punk (which happens often. haha.. ) and gives all the + tower cards (Dragon Eye, + 1 mines/monastery etc) to my opponent... I still have a chance of getting them ! hahaha.. :p | | then i guess i can say the randomizer works properly :) , peraphs with the tweaks conjectured on the last 2 paragraphs of post #13 |
This topic is long since last update and considered obsolete for further discussions.
1|2Back to topics list
|
