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| Author | Attack vs Defense |
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Lets discuss this a bit.
Am I the only one who thinks there should be the balance between the 2 instead of one dominating so hard? I am talking no one plays full attack on anything. Even on charmer elf, whose racial ability is directly linked with ones attack, yet people split attack and defense on charmers evenly.
The whole point for going full attack should be to deal damage whole going full defense would be to be tanky. Yet attackers do no damage while defenders are both tanky and do damage.
The reason for this is because most factions when going full attack simply die too fast (even to defense), while full defense has plenty of ways to deal damage. What else is unfair is that defense factions have ways to both deal damage and survive even more while attack factions get no benefit for their attack and have no way to survive longer. Lets look at some examples:
Darkness Demon: In addition to high defense parameter, their survivability is also boosted by their darkness magic severely weakening their opponents. As for dealing damage with low attack parameter, sheer number of fiends, temptress seduction, mass disruption rays and searing aura. Plenty of ways.
Tamer Dark Elf: Not only are they tanky and hard to kill, mistress can deny enemy shooters with confusions and slow enemies, as for dealing damage with low attack parameter, not a problem, you got mistress disruption and chastice, lizard charge and 2 units with high numbers and poision. Not to mention the stats on their units... I was playing as TDE vs a charmer elf , my atk def being around 25/55 and his 43/38 and my stack of 70 stalkers took out a stack of 68 forest breatheren 1vs1. How is that fair? FB is a tier 2, and is considered a strong one too (recruit count, 70 fb to 120 efk), but taken out by a tier 1 stack with same unit count???
Shadow barb: Defense, darkness magic, orc confusions, cyclops blinds and tribal spirit provides survivability while tribal spirit levels and disruption ray provide damage. (note, I am talking about damage you can deal to a full attack opponent).
Tribal: Delays, defense and tribal spirit provides survivability while tribal spirit levels, rapids and chain lightning provides damage.
Now lets look at the attack factions:
Charmer elf: If you go full attack, you are gonna be afraid to attack anyone even if you can do it first, cause retaliation is probably gonna destroy your stack. Your units wont deal damage to defenders, while they are gonna eat you (stalker vs fb example above)
Dark elf: The only weapon you got against a defender is a lizard charge, which you will prob only get one chance off cause after that they are still going to obliterate you. People even play full defense classic dark elves nowadays and that makes me sick.
Barb and fury barb: These guys have ways of dealing damage to strong defense enemies, only because of their armor piercing abilities. Yet, that defender will still deal more damage to you than you deal to him. Your only advantage is range, which will often get confused away)
BW: dominion of fire is a beast of a counter to them, but at the same time, it becomes even more broken against other full attackers. I once had my unicorn oneshot by 33 fortune genies (which is way too much IMO) after receiving a fireball.
Chaos counters defense while defense counters attack, where attack counters magic. That's how it used to be. Now defense does enough damage to kill a caster before he can spell him while attackers don't do enough damage to kill them (literaly, that defending gargoyle in a corner with 120 defense is not killable by my 90 attack unicorn, but easily beatable by a lizard charger with 60 attack)
I want my attack factions back. Either give us attackers way to survive or take away some of defenders survivability or damage.
Only faction that is really worth going full attack on is dwarf but lets not talk about that overpowered unbalanced monster that has literaly no weaknesses. Damage, tankyness (eve | (even with no attack), range, melee, crowd control, luck, and runes that can make them do LITERALY ANYTHING. Almost uncounterable. Super versatile. And the last update to them... I can only imagine admins chatting:
"Hey guys, dwarf is a really successful faction, hard to counter, can work against anything with that one build"
"Not everything Jim, defensive factions can beat them. Think we should do something about it?"
"Lets add a rune that pierces defense! Oh, and make sure it requires luck so that if dwarf gets to fight an attack faction or a hybrid, he can still crush him with luck. Oh, include magic barrier too, cant have that pesky wizard countering as well!"
All in all, I am not saying defense is broken and unbeatable, everything has a counter. But attack is too weak, they cant win against nothing. Find me a single guy in this minor tourney with a 90 procent win ratio as a 60 to 30 atk to defense or something. I dare ya.
Is there even a point in buying a ring of sun in pvp? | Isn't this part of the whole rock paper scissors thing?
Defence beats attack
Chaos beats defence
Attack beats chaos
In essence you seem to be upset that paper isn't beating scissors? | I seem to be upset that one of those 3 (which is my favorite) is not viable compared to others anymore. The chain is broken. It used to be :
Defense>Attack
Attack>Chaos
Chaos>Defense
Now its :
Defense>Attack
Attack=Chaos
Chaos=Defense | There are some faction combinations now where it is very hard to get a win. Defensive tribal versus DOF wizard is one.
One must be careful however of drawing generalisations from personal experiences, as it is biased by ones own build, be that strong, weak or mediocre.
It is to be expected to lose to characters of better builds, or for it to not work out that time around - luck is a factor (not just in the luck parameter but also in the ini bar, morale procs etc).
I have so far lost 3 from 11, twice from a dwarf. Does this mean they are OP, not necessarily. In all battles that I lost, things could have gone differently such that I may have had a chance to win, mayhem, morale, gargoyles movign before or after invokers - these things are chance and sometimes it goes your way, and sometimes it doesn;t.
With regard to defensive builds I have seen less of them, and more attack or balanced based builds than last time. A shame for me as I like to face defensive factions with Dof. I am not saying the balance is perfect, especially with the new faction changes, but to me these changes show that the admins want what you want. | Nobody complies you to use attack build.
You can play charmer elf at 30a/60d something to counter those defense factions, because just don't forget charmer elves are chaos casters too. | Nobody complies you to use attack build.
You can play charmer elf at 30a/60d something to counter those defense factions, because just don't forget charmer elves are chaos casters too.
True, but charmer elf spellpower is linked to attack. You wont have much magic damage with 25 AD where a TDE with 25 AD can deal as much damage as you with 40.
I know no one forces me to use it but I want to use it because I love that type of playstyle. I love dealing damage, I love seeing numbers. Also I hate literal messes like this, where hero does more damage than units (with its attacks):
https://www.lordswm.com/war.php?lt=-1&warid=892802093 | Personally in this MT, I won all charmer elves(as tamer de) whose defense was 30 or lower, but suffered a defeat from a charmer elf with 36 defense.
For your reference. | | go to high level, there are plenty of full attack build, def is just useless if your atk is high enough. | Personally in this MT, I won all charmer elves(as tamer de) whose defense was 30 or lower, but suffered a defeat from a charmer elf with 36 defense.
For your reference.
Exacly my point. High attack low defense is weak. Defense parameter is stronger than attack parameter. That's where I see the problem. | | If it was just defense, high attack could counter it. But, high defense isn't the only defenders survivability tool. Darkness magic, tribal spirit, etc... Combine it with defense and attack is useless | | Wait, so you're saying I shouldn't be playing a full attack build with DE? Maybe defence Dark demon is the way to go lmao | Wait, so you're saying I shouldn't be playing a full attack build with DE?
No, carry on. I don't think this affects your current level. Defense strategy starts working mainly from cl 14 upwards | | Gotta point out here that defence builds work everywhere. And full attack red demon can't survive long and full defence red demon can't do much damage. | | Now there are a lot of full attack build which seem to be working. That's more than 50 attack at level 15. Dwarves and charmer elves are examples, which can get through most defenses. | And full attack red demon can't survive long and full defence red demon can't do much damage.
Maybe thats why a hellsfire demon with last ditch talent is a thing cause it does damage too and survives aswell. |
This topic is long since last update and considered obsolete for further discussions.
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