| Author | Rules: Clan Donation |
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The rules (3.15.1) define exactly one kind of financial transactions from players to a clan, weekly clan taxes and advanced payment thereof. Thus every transaction from players to clans are restricted by the terms given there. Anything that exceeds this limit is a gift and thus subject to rule 3.15.
The rules do not specify whether a clan is property of its leader or independent.
In the first case direct deposits from the clan leader are unlimited and those of other players are bound by the limits of 3.15 + 3.15.1 + anything given to this player for the clan in compliance with 3.15.1. On the other hand this means transactions from the clan to players are limited by rule 3.15 as a gift from its leader.
In case of independence the limit for direct deposits from any player is 3.15.1 + anything given to this player for the clan in compliance with 3.15.1. Payments from the clan to players are unlimited. |
You would have to define what a gift is. There are many words in there about what a gift is: from you, not from the administration.
If you are buying an artifact it is not a gift, If you are buying entrace to a guild, it is not a gift. same applies for any mandatory donation (eg. not a gift) |
In 3.15 is what I call gift referred to as present and I use it in this sense.
Clans (technically) can't own or buy artifacts, so these are always property of individual players and the management of these items follow the same rules as if no clan were involved at all.
Technically transferring gold to a clan means transferring it to a member, who can directly deposit it to the clan's account. This is covered at first by 3.15.1 and if this limit is exceeded by 3.15, if this is also exceeded it's a break of these rules. Other items can't be transferred to or from a clan. |
my point had nothing to do with clans what-so-ever.
I am tired of people always saying "OMG he used more than 30%!!! ban him!!!"
If it is a clan donation, then yes the 30% applies. But if it a membership fee (for instance, to join a war guild) the 30% does NOT apply, as the 30% only applies for transactions that get no services returned, basically the dictionary definition of gift. If you get something back from money transferred, the 30% does not apply. |
The 500 gold the clan has to pay to invite someone is something that is directly associated to a player, so this can be regarded as payment for a service, everything exceeding this however is a fee you pay so the clan can pay the benefits you enjoy by being a member (e.g. a tax) and this is limited by 3.15.1.
Furthermore transactions must be concluded within a month, so even if paying for a potential upgrade into a war clan were not subject to 3.15.1, collecting now instead of when war clan are officially announced is likely to end up in violating the rules. |
| you aren't paying for a potential upgrade, you are paying for membership. I can't recall anywhere that says 500g is the limit you can ask for member ship, and the rest is a donation. |
What's the point of discussion here? Is donation allowed? It seems both of you agree donation is a 'gift', to a person or a clan. So as long as it passes 30% rule, it should be no problem. War clan or not, that is irrelevant.
On the other front, I don't even see 30% rule can be practical at all. |
Basically, the reason this rule was implemented (30%) is to allow people to give others money, but put a limit on how much. Making it only 30% prevents abuse.
I fail to see how giving money to a clan could be used abusively though... of course, I am pretty sure the admins didn't think about clan donations being used as a "gift" when they made the rule. Maybe someone will tell them to make these rules clearer, it is really foggy on what is ok, and what is not. |
500 gold is the amount that could be considered as paying a service.
Lets give me an example a level 8 player with 20,000 gold joins a clan. The entrance fee is 5,000, deducting the cost for the invitation leaves 4,500. The player is allowed to pay 300 * [combat level] per week and can prepay for a month, so he can pay up to 9,600 at once. Now if he wants to make an additional donation he can up 5,100 as taxes and another 3,000 as a gift to the leader as (ca.) 30% of his remaining 9,900 gold, if he haven't made any other presents yet and he can't pay other taxes to this clan and make presents to other players this month.
The problem is if you can donate to a clan as much as you like, the clan can redistribute the money and this way 3.15 is effectively bypassed. |
| I the gold is dedicated to a NEED to join a clan, than that's what it is. It can not be redirected to a donation, unless that is stated. If it is payed as the "entrance fee" then that is what it goes for. It is not a donation, it is not going toward taxes, it is simply part of the entrance fee (unless otherwise stated). |
So your saying the entrance fee can be arbitrarily high? If that's so I could before leaving the game join a clan and paying everything I have as an entrance fee, effectively bypassing 3.15.
The need is not to join a clan, but to be in one. You certainly agree that it doesn't serve any need if you join a clan and are kicked out after an hour.
And for the need to be in a clan the rules state a maximum price, which is 300 * [combat level]. |
It is the same thing as buying a bunch of arts from the market before you leave.
The maxium price of 300 * combat lvl is for taxes, not an entrance fee. The entrance fee is set by the clan, not the person, so no, you could not put everthing you have as an entrance fee.
Anything beyond the specified entrance fee is then paying too much and should be returned.
The entrance fee (stated in the clan page) is what IS NOT, and SHOULD NOT, be considered a gift. |
| I'm puzzled as to the purpose of this thread. Are you trying to impress us with how well-versed you are with the rules? Are you giving us YOUR interpretation of the rules? Are you saying somebody violated these rules? Are you voicing a concern, making a complain, or expressing an opinion? What? |
12:
Of course the entrance fee is set by the clan, but what stops the leader to temporarily raise it to 500,000 make one player pay it and then set it back to where it was?
It's not the same as buying arts because the seller has to give something and doesn't gain an unwarranted advantage.
Entrance fees are mentioned in the rules just once and there in close relation with taxes. (3.13)
13:
I noticed some dissent on the matter, so I thought it would be a good idea to bring up an interpretation how the existing rules can be applied to the situation in a way that has little to no means to abuse them.
Plus I hope it stops people discussing the matter in C&A and it occupies some time when I wait for the next battle. |
On entrance fee: it's not goverened by rules. Meaning, if entrance fee is 5k and all I have is 6k transfering it does not qualify as fin. assist or breaking of 3.15.
On taxes: there's rule 3.15.1 for those, taxes aren't considered presents, or donation.
On donation and gifts: those are goverened by 3.15 and considered the same.
Meaning, if I have 100k then in this month I can send 30k to Clan (as donation) or 30k to MyBestFriend (as gift) but not both. Of course I can send 15k to each of the two :) |
I fail to see how giving money to a clan could be used abusively though
someone could borrow 20k from one clan to give 30% of that to a second clan, in the hopes of undermining the first clan. |
I believe player A can give 100% of his wealth through clan to player B without breaking any rule.
Meaning, if I have 100k then in this month I can send 30k to Clan (as donation) or 30k to MyBestFriend (as gift) but not both. Of course I can send 15k to each of the two :)
If what you say is true, then please unlock my topic again, because it is relevant.
https://www.lordswm.com/forum_messages.php?tid=1852933 |
I believe player A can give 100% of his wealth through clan to player B without breaking any rule.
That's financial assist. And that's so not allowed. |
On entrance fee: it's not goverened by rules. Meaning, if entrance fee is 5k and all I have is 6k transfering it does not qualify as fin. assist or breaking of 3.15.
The problem I see, while rules mention entrance fee, they don't define it. Is it something the clan can set freely for their members or does it just refer to the 500 gold the clan has to pay for invitations.
For me it is strange that some aspects of transferring to clans are limited (taxes/donations) and an other aspect seems to be unlimited (entrance fee).
One might be inclined to say there is little danger of abuse since these payments are singular and equal for all members, but there is no rule that demands equality and multiple leaving and joining a clan could be used to pay the fee several times. |
entrance fee is set by clans.
there is no rule that demands equality and multiple leaving and joining a clan could be used to pay the fee several times.
That's financial assist. And that's so not allowed. |
