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| Author | A personal thought on a certain event :) |
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Yes, I admit I thought recruiting another clan for extra help was cheap. Since so many WGW/EFL people complained, I removed it from the analysis, but will mention it here.
So, flame away.
My concern is that with this move, we're going to see more political type moves for events. Perhaps next time it won't be WGW and EFL, but LoS and GoR teaming up to put 250 active players in the field and running away with an event. Soon after, there might be agreements everywhere which in turn means that eventually people will start betraying one another. That will lead to vendettas, etc, which can really make an online game die faster than anything else.
I mentioned that I used the model of analysis from another game for my own. That game, a German strategy game currently entering a new T4 phase, was a game that I loved when I started. I played with good people, and they loved the game too. It was fun and good spirited. However, after a few years and servers went by, the forums became little more than a place to sling accusations and verbally bash each other. Betrayals cost people accounts that they had put lots of money into. Soon people stopped liking the game. I quit and most of the people I knew quit after it got to the point where anything good that was done was immediately slandered or praised and it was all based on the affiliation of the person speaking. Some friend recently put together the largest army ever seen on the .us domain in 5 years its been open and instead of being acknowledged, they were abused and belittled. That's lame.
That is what I see coming from politicking. True, its based on personal experience, but that should actually give my concerns validity rather than make them weaker. I assume it doesn't have to go that way, but I see the potential for that.
As for the 'loaning of members', to me, it felt like a low blow, kinda like a 'win at any cost' or a 'kick them after you've already won' move. That's coming from the one on the receiving end, perhaps were it my clan that did it, I'd see it as 'insuring our victory' or 'making use of our allies'. Perhaps, perhaps not. | A personal thought on a certain analysis:
Thanks for your huge efforts and all those facts and numbers you wanted to submit to the attention of all players in the other thread.
Thanks for suggesting all clans what they should do and which choices they should follow. Let me quote: "Will the leaders go through the ranks and check for inactives or cheaters? I know EW did, and assume others did also. It seems that reducing dead weight is a key to success in any world, whether business, sports, or life itself." And again: "If their members didn't find it fun to play a lot of the event, they were okay with that. Good for them, since this game does need MCs that don't take things too seriously."
Thanks for the warning of which dire darkness will fall upon us if we start "politicking" out of your experience. You are the only one here with experience in that totally different German strategy game. But now we all know.
Thanks for pointing AGAIN how openly politicking and taking 3 members (which didnt affect final result) was "cheap" and a "low blow" and even - hear hear - "kick them after you've already won". Hidden loans of members were just mentioned, but ofc I guess those posts were already long enough.
There was just a tiny contraddiction i noticed in your unbiased and not complaining objective analysis: higher levels of EW were penalized from long battles, Gor were favoured because of so many low levels, yet:
"At level 9, EW utterly dominates with an impressive 42 kills (134 total). WGW takes second with 16 kills (109 total), DA takes third with six kills (24 total) and LoS takes fourth with four kills (23 total)."
If EW were penalized by being high levels, why their highest number of killing top demons should have been so much impressive? | Clan politics seem like an interesting concept as they could be both a good thing and a bad thing.
Something good that could come is that MC's could have something interesting to do instead of just having a fancy symbol besides our names and also it could be a good way for recruiting new members.
Bad things would be as stated above the constant bashing of clans against other clans and eventually that would kill the friendly game atmosphere. But that might spark a clan war, which might be pretty fun if you think about it. | Does anyone have a copy of -
1.A personal thought on a certain event :) for dummies
2.A personal thought on a certain analysis: for dummies
I am quiet sure the issue mentioned here is serious and requires attention of all those who love the server... but i am equally sure that there are people like me who do not understand what is going on ... What is the conspiracy theory ... kindly someone explain it to me(and to others like me)... preferably without being offensive ;)
Regards,
Yuvika.
Have a nice day ! | viola, argue politics here, discuss the analysis there. Stay on topic please. Also since so many people complained because I put my opinions in with the analysis, I'll thank you to stop mixing the two when you're spewing your bile. :)
As for your one comment that actually relates to this thread: I did not say that it would happen, just that it has happened elsewhere. I would prefer it not happen here. While that game is different, the main factor in both games is the same - human nature. Therefore it is a real possibility for it to happen elsewhere.
Mage, I'm not arguing that there is potential for good, I'm just saying I don't think its worth it. | #5 Bile? Which bile? And for what?
Ironic thanks don't imply any bile.
And sorry but i dont understand your logic: since many people complained about your opinions inside the analyis I should stop mixing the two?
Anyway sorry if i mixed them a bit. But comments related to this specific thread were at least 2.
Thanks for the warning of which dire darkness will fall upon us if we start "politicking" out of your experience. You are the only one here with experience in that totally different German strategy game. But now we all know.
Thanks for pointing AGAIN how openly politicking and taking 3 members (which didnt affect final result) was "cheap" and a "low blow" and even - hear hear - "kick them after you've already won".
#4
1) There has been the first event among military clans. Demon war.
2) WGW was the winner, EW were second.
3) At a certain point, when victory was not completely certain, our leader had asked openly to an allied clan (EFL) if their players wanted to play with us.
4) Real problem was that such decision was taken without discussion inside our clan, quite unusual since its democratic nature. Yet it was wartime and wrong or right, our leaders made that move.
5) Many players were shocked. Many players knew about moving of single members inside and outside other clans in a much hidden way. Now, it has become a fact that on our server mercenaries were much less shocking than asking for help to an allied clan.
Anyway, for some players (and im not including Ryric among them) the issue was a way to diminish the victory of WGW.
I hope my resume for dummies could be useful. Have a nice day you too. | So is this another flame topic or a legit attempt at discussing ethics again?
I'm not going to point fingers and name MCs, but there have been a lot of unethical (but legal) actions going on. I know everyone have different ethics, but here's mine.
Unethical actions (during the event):
1) Recruiting no clan players who racking up many wins
2) Recruiting low level active players and even paying them to fund their battles
3) Hiring of mercenaries
Unethical actions (after the event):
1) Arguing how their MC is clean and other MC is unethical when their MC is even more unethical
2) Complaining how one's clan is handicapped because they have more high levels, but at the same time don't have numbers to backup their claim. A breakdown of their MC's combat levels is not sufficient because many players can be inactive.
3) Finding ways to make one's MC seem better by adjusting the numbers and formulas. For example our top 20 players at level 10 did the most combats and killed the most bosses. | It's not really meant to be a legit ethical discussion, though those are not bad. It was just a place for me to rant and let off steam about it after getting bashed for making a comment in my analysis.
For your during the event, I agree with 2, maybe on 3, and not on 1. As the OP indicates, I think you left 4. Borrowing another clans members. off the list. That is, unless it falls under 3.
I'm fairly sure that your 1 is aimed at LoS, not sure on teh 2, and your 3 is probably aimed at EW. I point this out, because you are sniping just as obviously as if you said it, though I appreciate that you didn't.
As for the after event comments:
1 - I don't have any clue who that is aimed at. I am hoping that you are not aiming that my way, since I really am not sure how (beyond your complaints about mercs) you can argue EW is unethical.
2 - I did not argue that, yet I'm sure you're still aiming at me. For support, I can offer the surveys of leadership from every MC - nearly all of them agreed that the overall combat system does not favor high levels for that event. That includes Arctic himself. He pointed out that the bosses favored higher level players, as did other leaders. That was the current 'balance'. I'm saying that for this event, we did suffer a bit because of that - I'm not saying anyone tried to screw us or that it makes the event any less fair overall. As for inactives - if they have a clan tag, they are part of that clan. They don't get 'hidden' for statistical purposes.
3 - Again, I think you're aiming that at me - What numbers or formulae did I adjust? I took the numbers by the breaks that the game provides - combat level in the top 50, where obviously being 10+ was something special. I took the boss kills - another obvious division - remember how the boss list was divided by levels?
By the way, this is the second time now that comments aimed at the analysis have been put into this thread.
Let me make this request and let me make it clear: this thread was started for a place where I could say simply that I did not like ONE SPECIFIC move from one clan. Discuss THAT particular move, or if you want to say you dislike some other CLAN (or CLAN LEADERSHIP) move and NOTHING ELSE in this thread. The analysis I created was created by me, a player (who happens to be in EW), for the benefit of other players, and the enjoyment of the community. It is NOT from EW leadership, it was not an EW project, so if you don't like it, don't blame EW for it. And don't discuss it here.
If you dislike my analysis, or think there is a flaw in it, PLEASE discuss that in the analysis thread.
Moderators: Please delete any further posts that do not relate to the topic of this thread, basically, unethical events during the clan wars, particularly any from leadership. | for Ryric:
I thought I was being on topic. To me this sounds like another vague topic on ethics.
And you don't need to be so defensive. None of my post#7 was specifically directed or targeted at you. You even twisted some of my listings to make it seem like an attack on you. | 7. Falling down to interpersonal quarrels between players is strictly forbidden in this thread. Discuss your relations via Private mail, please.
Like you yourself said, this thread was just a means for you to let off some steam, but I hope not at the expense of rules :)
Moderators: Please take care of this thread according to the game rules, not the whims of one player. | Let me clarify one thing, Ryric:
I don't have any clue who that is aimed at. I am hoping that you are not aiming that my way, since I really am not sure how (beyond your complaints about mercs) you can argue EW is unethical.
challenge accepted:
second blindfold tournament ;)
Now on topic:
1, recruiting 3 players from EFL have absolutelly no impact on results. I know it, you know it, Ryric, and many others knows it. Yet you act like it was something that changed the fate of this server. I wonder why.
2, decision to recruit those 3 players was done by single person in WGW. Many players disagreed with this decision and left WGW, therefore I consider it to be a mistake to recruit mercenaries. But ppl DO mistakes... it's simply human nature. It's like your first thread: you wanted to stay neutral, but you failed to do so. |
And you don't need to be so defensive. None of my post#7 was specifically directed or targeted at you. You even twisted some of my listings to make it seem like an attack on you.
In that case, I apologize. I guess I got jumpy and as I read through your list of items, it seemed like you were dealing with other things.
@10
Not a quarrel between players. It's a quarrel I have with the decision made by whatever leader in WGW (and no, I don't know who) set it up, and its magnified because I see dangers from it.
@11
OC, Please PM me with details. I don't really recall that tourney or whether I was with EW at the time. I want to know truth, about as much as I can. :) If my clan has skeletons in its closet, I'd like to see them so I can make some personal judgments on them.
1. Correct. No effect on results, but as I said originally, it still felt like an unnecessary/cheap move. To me, it seemed like, "We'll beat you anyway, but we'll do this to make our win over you a bit bigger." If you are familiar with American football, it's like running up more scores on the other team after you have a 42-0 lead with only five minutes to go, instead of just running the clock down to end the game. Kinda like losing a close baseball game, then having the other team spit in their hands before they line up to shake hands at the mound. As for why it is significant, it is because someone always goes farther and does something bigger - Kusika sets X record. Someday, someone will beat it. Something minor is done, someday the idea will be used to do something worse.
2. Agreed - it is human nature to make mistakes. And in some cases, there is a token apology and correction (like my thread). However, if this was a mistake, or a regretted decision, I haven't seen any sign of it. Rather, it seems to be a decision that is defiantly stood by, and if someone says they don't like it, it triggers a vicious backlash. | For the uninformed and interested: I was deputy leader of WGW at the time of the event, I made this decision of recruiting EFL members alone.
So blame personally me, not WGW.
You're also free to PM me, if you want to know more or rant at me. :)
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It's a browser game, a very tiny one. Don't take it so serious. Put your political efforts and energies into the real world, there it would be seriously needed.
It's a war game, it was a war event. I didn't hack EW accounts to secure our victory, I used game mechanics and communication. Unethical or not, I won't do something like this again. Not because some flaming - no - because the clan doesn't want it.
Blowing this thing up again doesn't help anyone. | Sorry for the double post.
On second thought, perhaps I will just lock this. I wanted to say my part and I made it clear that I don't like the decision they made, I think it is wrong, and I think it will cause trouble.
However, saying that is taking attention off where I really want it, which is not my personal opinions and my annoyances at certain individuals responses, regardless of their clans.
I said my part, and I'm open to PMs either if you think I'm honestly wrong or unaware of things that would change my views. Please tell me - I like to seek the root of things.
Anyway, get away from reading this and go back to the thread that matters. | Lol, not a double post.
You're right, Nutella, and I will take you up on your offer to discuss it in PM. I wasn't looking to blow it up again. | | closed by Ryric (2011-02-22 11:55:18) |
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