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Could someone explain me how is it possible my skeleton bowmen can go in their first turn before unit with 12 init while they have 10,9 initiative? At the beginning they get random initiative from the interval <0;10%> and the random initiative is multiplied by their basic initiative... so as skeleton bowmen have 10 basic initiative, total random initiative added at the beginning should be maximally 1 (10x0,1=1) or no? Or is the random initiative multiplied by their current initiative (in my case it is 10,9) they have before the battle starts? So 10,9*0,1=1,09% and so they can accumulate their initiative up to 11,99 what is exactly 12? And so they can go before unit with 12 init in their first turn?
Thanks for the answer | well, you need to add some iportant values
- Faction Level Init Bonus
- TG init bonus
- Art init bonus
And then you will have an idea on your troop real init. You can have an eye there : https://www.lordswm.com/army.php | As I wrote my skeleton's initiative is 10,9 :) And they were able to go before unit with 12 init in the hunt... Evern if they get +10% initiative at the beginning and the stack with 12 init gets nothing, those 10% would have to be multiplied by 10,9 instead of 10 as I thought...
btw the chance this happens is 0,41% if I counted it well (1/11 x 1/11 x 1/2) | It's not <0;10%>, but <-5;+5%>
Thus, 10.9*1.05 = 11.445
And 12*0.95 = 11.4
There your skellies move first. | https://www.lordswm.com/war.php?lt=-1&warid=34674930
And yes, by 10% they don't mean 1 initiative point, they mean...
Initiative of creature*110% = Initiative of creature on first turn (and first turn only). Which, of course in this case is close enough to 12 to be rounded up. | for Slust:
https://www.lordswm.com/help.php?section=29
The pre-combat positioning of units on the bar happens with a random deviation of 0% to 10%.
Maybe it is the same like <-5;+5%>, it doesn't matter
for Di_En3:
I wrote the same but I wrote it opaquely, I think :)
I just wasn't sure if the multiplied initiative is the basic initiative (10 in this case) or the real initiative (10,9 this time)... :) | The pre-combat positioning of units on the bar happens with a random deviation of 0% to 10%.
Maybe it is the same like <-5;+5%>, it doesn't matter
No, that's not the same. Removing % from higher ini has greater impact than adding on lower ini, just as shown in my calculations.
However, I did some research as to find some link to support my post. Interesting fact is that we are both wrong, and that the +10% deviation does exist, but not the way we think it does. It's not ini that is increased virtually for 1 round, but instead that the unit can get "pushed forward" on ATB bar by 10% of a hero turn, just as wasp could "push backward".
Ie, if you consider Arctic's exemple of ini being like units running in circle a 100m race in a stadium: https://www.lordswm.com/forum_messages.php?tid=1832909
then, it means that any unit can start from 0 to 10 metters from the start.
The difference is hard to feel, but calculations show it's not the same:
Skels: 90/10.9 = 8.26 sec
12 ini-ed: 100/12 = 8.33 sec
Skellies finish the race first, ie they have their turn first.
Here you have another exemple:
https://www.lordswm.com/forum_messages.php?tid=1881953&page=0#405089
post 12:
10.3 elven moving before 11.4 orcs.
10.3 * 1.1 = 11.33 for elven bows, which is less than orcs
With result in post 15:
C stack - 10.3 ini;
D stack - 11.4 ini.
If C starts at 10m, it needs: 90 / 10.3 ~ 8.8 "sec" to reach 100m.
D starts at 0m, it needs: 100 / 11.4 ~ 8.8 "sec" to reach 100m.
With more detailed results, you would see that actually, C is slightly faster than D, though you can argue about how numbers are rounded by the game.
I would consider it this way: if a 10 ini-ed unit get 10% more ini (inacurate model), they should have their turn at the exact same time as a 11 ini-ed unit.
If you consider its 10 metter forward, then, in 1 hero turn, 10 ini-ed creature will run 100 meters (but since they start at 10m, when the hero will be at 100m, the creature will be at 110m), and end their turn after running 90 metters, ie 90/100 = 90% of 1 hero turn.
11 ini-ed runs 110 metter per hero turn, ie if they start at 0m, then, they will finish the turn (have their move) at 100/110 = 90.909% of 1 hero turn (they runned for 100 metters out of a total of 110), thus the 10% deviation is actually underestimated by a 10% higher ini (underestimated by about 10% of the real value in this exemple). In fact, it will only be equivalent once the hero turn will be over, ie they will be both at 110m. Earlier, 11-inied would always be a little bit behind 10-inied, trying to catch up with it, including when 10-inied creature will have its turn.
I hope I'm not being too confusing... | I hope I'm not being too confusing...
Yes, you are. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. Are you trying to prove that <-5;+5%> is correct, and <0;10%> is not? If so, nothing you said supports that. | for Slust:
thanks a lot, I think I understand :-) I read both your and Arctic's explanations and it seems you gave us good examples based on his explanation.
for Geryon:
He is not trying to prove that <-5;+5%> is correct, and <0;10%> is not, later he wrote we are both wrong, and that the +10% deviation does exist, but not the way we think it does
So the problem is solved, I let the discussion opened for a while to let the others add their opinions if they think they should write something else. | Are you trying to prove that <-5;+5%> is correct, and <0;10%> is not?
No. I'm trying to prove that both are wrong. I thought about it a bit more; if you want to talk about increased ini, then the max value would be 11.111...%, though considering the deviation as an increased ini is not true.
If I'm right, then it would mean that skellies could end up with 12.11 ini, thus more than the other creature.
As per where the 11.111% comes from, it's because, if you consider the above exemple, the lower ini-ed creature, that should run 90 metters to have its turn, should do that as fast as the other creature would run 100 meters (so that they would both have their turn in the "same time").
Then, if you divide 100 per 90, you get the ... I know little about English term in maths; well, the result would give something equivalent to what you would get if dividing the ini of both creatures, ie you can then conclude about the max ini deviation. Now I know I am confusing on this part, but I lack math-related vocabulary.
Anyway, 100/90 = 1.1111..., so the fastest stack must not have a higher ini than 111% of the lower ini-ed creature, for the lower ini-ed to possibly move first, so max deviation is 11.11...%, ini talking. | No. I'm trying to prove that both are wrong.
Ah. Then you didn't succeed either. <0;10%> is correct.
You started out with the correct calculations:
Skels: 90/10.9 = 8.26 sec
12 ini-ed: 100/12 = 8.33 sec
This is how it works, and how it can explain why the slow stack went before the fast stack. And then I don't know where you were trying to go from there. Then you made an incorrect statement:
if a 10 ini-ed unit get 10% more ini (inacurate model), they should have their turn at the exact same time as a 11 ini-ed unit.
That's where you lost me. | if a 10 ini-ed unit get 10% more ini (inacurate model), they should have their turn at the exact same time as a 11 ini-ed unit.
That's where you lost me.
Let's try it this way: when 10 ini-ed runs for 10m, then 11 ini-ed runs for 11m. Still if 10-inied starts at 10m, then when it has it turns, it runned for 90m, and 11 ini-ed, beginning from the start, runned for 99m, thus being 1 meter behind 10 ini-ed.
So, with max deviation (in lap turns), 10 ini-ed has its turn earlier than 11 ini-ed, while if you consider deviation as an increased ini, it's not possible. At the best, they should have their turn at the same time.
Now if you consider a 9.9 ini-ed unit, it should always move after 11 ini-ed if <0;10%> is correct. Let's check how it turns out with the correct calculations:
9.9 ini-ed: 90/9.9 = 9.09... sec
11 ini-ed: 100/11 = 9.09... sec
The result is exactly the same, so it's possible that 9.9 ini-ed moves first, thus considering the deviation as a 10% increase in ini is flawed.
<0;10%> would be correct, ini talking, if it would be a negative deviation, in which case the 11 ini-ed would have to run 110 meters to have its turn, and 10 ini-ed, 100 meters. Then it would take 10 "seconds" for both to have their turn. | <0;10%> is deviation in lap turn. That's why I said your calculation:
Skels: 90/10.9 = 8.26 sec
12 ini-ed: 100/12 = 8.33 sec
is the correct one. Post 5 is completely wrong.
I don't get why this is so hard for people to understand. It's a simple speed/distance/formula:
speed (or initiative as they call it here) = distance / time.
The random bonus in the beginning <0;10%> is the bonus to distance, not time, not speed.
Just for amusement, let's figure out, if your opponent's initiative is 10.0, how high your initiative will have to be to guarantee that you will always move first initially.
First, we must note that the initiative shown is rounded up for display only. I believe the computer retains the correct initiative to many more decimal places. Thus, your opponent's 10.9 initiative might actually be 10.94999. Let's assume that as the worst case. Also assume for the worst case that he has maximum initial bonus, and you have minimum. Then the inequality is
1 / x < 0.9 / 10.9499.
Solving for this inequality, you'd get,
x > 12.1667
This would show up as 12.2 for initiative. But 12.2 might also be 12.15, which is not enough. So to absolutely guarantee that you move first, you'd need to have 12.3 for your initiative. | | closed by Lord DaveM (2012-03-17 17:54:41) |
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