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| Author | critical magic? |
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It may be more of a philosophical question than anything else, but:
why can't magic users critical like might users do?
When i look at it, a might user with 10 points in attack using a 1-2 damage units stack (tier 1 or 2, that is) of, say, 20, can easily hit for a 100 against a 5 or 6 def unit. Fine.
A magic user with the same amount of SP as the might had in attack, using arrow (first offensive spell available, except for wiz), would hit for 104 (assuming there is no magic resistance in front, which happen often at low levels).
This for heroes.
Stacks using magic will generally have a slightly lower hit damage compared to what they can get with a physical hit, unless there are less than a few units left (magi, for instance, start hitting harder with phy from 5)
Also, if one can counter a high defense with a high attack, and hits will still go through and effectively damage opponent, countering a magic resistance becomes very difficult, unless one has specific pierce through magic gear (with the exception of DE, of course).
I mean, take the first antimagic gear (lvl 9): you can get 15% off opponent magic with 3 pieces only. That's quite a bit, really, considering there is no pierce through available until the next level.
So, as it is, things may be considered fairly balanced, with no real advantage either side.
But: when luck triggers, the balance goes away, since physical damage is doubled. Magic attack, on the other side, will always stay the same (again, with the exception of DE using elemental call).Hence my question, that will probably be better formulated like this:
What makes it up for this missing extra damage on the magic side? | chaos magic would be unstoppable if there was a chance to double its damage.
this said, there's actually a talent called "Sorceror's Luck", which does create a chance for spells to do 200% damage. but you would have to take a bunch of talents that are useless for mage (like "Expert Luck" - 27 talent points in DE wheel) and this renders the talent overpriced (in talent points). i've never seen anyone use it, it's just a total waste. maybe when CL50 is implemented and ppl have nowhere else to spend talent points on... | | well normal considering wizards don't have luck talents.. :/ | | the balance does not go away, as wizs and magic de/demon deal much damage with hero's while troops run away. Luck and morale is a kind of counter to fleeing gargs and other troops.. | many players complain that DE mage is overpowered because Elemental Call gives the chance to deal 150% damage (for 200% mana cost). admins even changed the "magic pierce" ability to a weaker "defense bonus" ability.
imagine wizards dealing even more damage than that. you wouldn't even have the chance to touch those pesky gargoyles :p
and wizards can very easily put together (unlike DE, when it comes to chaos magic) a hybrid build (might & magic). which means they could make use of the luck talents on melee and then benefit from luck triggers on the spells. that would make me want to try out the wizard faction for sure :) | wait people.
I'm not talking about wizards, i'm talking about balance between might and magic.
About the gargoyles, shooters can take them down, as well as demon or DE chaos magic. So that's that, and it takes nothing away from the fact that a creature (let's make abstraction of the heroes) that uses magic has its damage capped to a fixed amount, often much lower than what a physical attack can do (again, exception made for the smallest stacks), and yet it has no way of increasing it.
Also think that if defending gear's antimagic applies to creatures, lord's spell power doesn't (but attack power does!), and that's another full point against magic.
When i see a stack of lorekeepers fireballing a knight troop to kill only 2 or 3 of those, and the volleying bowmen getting down a dozen or so in each front stack, because of a luck trigger, That's what makes me wonder. | that option is available for DE heroes magic through luck but its very expensive in TP. the hero gets luck in his chaos spells. It was originally available in HOMM V. but about what you are saying:
its all on tactics. if you check the higher level combats you see that the shooting is not a helper to open the way to shooters so much. players are putting higher numbers so that the first shot doesn't kill the guards of shooters. that is almost never done in low levels. tell me this, when you are fighting elfs can you open the way to the bowmen when they use druids to block it. it always take time. as for mages, their spell is one of the best things to open the way specially from lvl 12. the mages are really good in PVP in lots of levels. but playing correctly against each enemy is important. each setup for a faction also needs a new strategy to make you win easily. a lot of guys say that we win against wizards easily but i have seen them crushed against a good player of wizards. believe me when i say: the factions are more balanced than what you think. | but again - this is not about factions. It's about might Vs magic.
All factions have some sort of magic. And yes, tactics will help, but if you put two same-minded players in front of each other, with equivalent gear for might for one, and magic the other, the first gets an advantage - no matter the faction - because of luck triggers.
( even more so if the second is a barb :D ) | | You're comparing apple to a ... chair! When does a might hero get a critical hit with his physical attack? | | no you are wrong. the characters with luck depend on it to win. you can say this too: a person with full attack talents will lose to player with full luck. which we all know doesn't happen so much. some factions like elfs will loose the game if luck does not trigger in the right moments. the wizard damage is already too high and is not affected by armors as much as luck damage is. | (let's make abstraction of the heroes)
could you all keep this in mind when formulating your answers, please?
I'm trying to consider about magic coming from troops. Thanks.
As of wiz damage, (parenthesis), it is greatly affected by antimagic armors, as well as antimagic resistances. But i believe that with no luck on either side, that could be considered balanced too. (/parenthesis) | speAs of wiz damage, (parenthesis), it is greatly affected by antimagic armors, as well as antimagic resistances.
here is the balance. please consider the cost of magic resist either on arts or talent. | the magic armor is nothing compared to the defense parameter. how much damage is decreased by anti-magic resistance and how much by defense. if you want to consider everything you have to go for:
- pierce through magic
- ignore defense
- less melee damage
- enchanted arts effects.
but don't forget the game balancing is done. not just by our mods but from a long time ago by ubisoft. I suggest you again to check the higher level players. | I did go trough all this, as you said. It is not because "several people say they did it right" that it *is* right.
Now, if you want to prove that a perfect balance exists, which I do not believe, please do submit a mathematical proofing.
That's all i'm asking since the beginning. A proof, or some analyzable logic, of this "might and magic it's all well balanced", that I did look for, and couldn't find in the end*.
It's a question, and so far, instead of a proper answer, i just got several blind "no you are wrong".
If you can't prove it: you are as right as those middle-age people that believed world to be a flatland.
There were quite a big bunch saying it, yet..
*(and when I tell you I did look for it, I mean I spent days calculating variables for all levels) | Pang: (sorry for double, didn't see your answer)
when i looked at it, that part seemed to be balanced by the fact that every SP used by magic heroes will be substracted from the maximal atk power said hero could get.
And it won't benefit the troops, like atk does, only hero.
As a parallel, take barbarian: his attack increases hugely and in the end a barbarian hero from lvl 10 can do as much damage as a wizard one. But his troops are still stronger, they all benefit from the attack parameter AND the luck triggers.
Barbarian attack is unaffected by opponent normal def, pretty much like wizard hit is.
You can tell me that costs TP: but so does DE elemental call, then.
Also, starting from lvl 9, shop gear start to get antimagic properties; there, without any specific investment, one will get -15% to -36% just with 3 normal pieces of armor (assuming up to lvl 15). Where the best piercing throug magic is 25% (again, without bargaining for specific enchants and such).
honestly, no matter i calculate this part, it doesn't seem to account for the extra luck damage either. | not just by our mods but from a long time ago by ubisof
OMHG.ubisoft did it?seriously? | | dude, mods dont do those balance thingy :) | when i looked at it, that part seemed to be balanced by the fact that every SP used by magic heroes will be substracted from the maximal atk power said hero could get.
And it won't benefit the troops, like atk does, only hero.
hero? i thought you were talking on troops? -> I'm trying to consider about magic coming from troops. Thanks.
As a parallel, take barbarian: his attack increases hugely and in the end a barbarian hero from lvl 10 can do as much damage as a wizard one.
try to not take barbarian as example; that's the only exception faction can only go might but not magic. it would be shame that a pure might faction has only same power like other faction with might built unless you try to kill this pure might faction.
Also, starting from lvl 9, shop gear start to get antimagic properties; there, without any specific investment, one will get -15% to -36% just with 3 normal pieces of armor (assuming up to lvl 15). Where the best piercing throug magic is 25% (again, without bargaining for specific enchants and such).
that's right. the magic resist gear isnt much. what about the def parameter you can get from arts? the magic dmg [ignore physical def] still a huge threat to most of the unit; you cant deny that.
might dmg [physical dmg] can be resist easily either with def parameter, talent or arts; while magic resist can only rely on afew arts and some talents.
hence i would say the magic dmg from spells are just work as it should; provide you a constant reliable dmg output.
you might argue on morale and luck make difference on might built. but, morale and luck need to be triggered to work else it is nothing more than wasted. | | Topic moved from "Queries and help" to "General game forum". | honestly, no matter i calculate this part, it doesn't seem to account for the extra luck damage either.
Magic parameters affect heroes while might parameters affect troops (mostly, I think). Magic heroes cannot be stunned or blocked or slowed or killed and their damage output is pretty much consistent throughout the battle until they run out of mana and they can deal damage from their first turn. Troops get bonuses from luck and morale but they suffer from attrition, their damage output gets lower and lower as the game progresses and they cannot always deal damage their first turn. It's like this:
Magic Wizard and army damage output:
- START OF BATTLE -
XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXX
XXXXXX
XXXXX
- END OF BATTLE -
Reduction in damage output is due to attrition (Golems and Genies dying, etc).
Barbarian hero and army damage output:
- START OF BATTLE -
XXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXX
XXXX
XX
- END OF BATTLE -
Damage output drops drastically because morale and luck gets less and less effective as troops die. Both parties get the same number of "X" (26).
Note: I do not believe there is or should be a balance between "Might" and "Magic" but I hope this helps on your quest for knowledge... |
This topic is long since last update and considered obsolete for further discussions.
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