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| Author | Paired Tournament |
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this is why traditional dd is just annoying, rather than deadly. they are good support, but bad damage dealer, which often means the teammate of traditional dd must try to deal twice total damage, under the support of dd. anyway in the example battle dof wiz make every unit deadly, it become another story.
To put things into context, 4 disrupts (two hero turn) has equivalent effect of dof, but it is permanent, further stackable, on the scale of a whole army, not just one or two stacks and it doesn't affect friendlies so you can't hide from it like you can from mass destruction spells. Since the ennemy is under the effect of 50% delay it means that the ennemy gets as many turns in beetween said 4 disrupts than a single wizard fireball. So DD too can make "every unit deadly". | I want to see the day where people can just say "Those are a little bit too OP/Imba", or "These are kinda weak"... Without getting looked at in a weird way.
Guys, lets just be honest and acknowledge/admit that there are Factions that are "Above the average", and others that are "Weaker", or have less "Tools", or whatever Euphemistic ways you wanna use to describe this.
There is nothing wrong about saying that a Class is "Broken", I dont see why it seems "Unpolite" to say it in Forums, but I have the feeling saying so is not respected at all.
Lets be honest, and admit that we all pray in PvP (CG) to have a DD/BW/TDE ally, rather than a Classic Barb, Classic Wiz, or Alt Necro.
There is nothing wrong about saying it... | for Ipsen:
You make a fair point,
It is fine to say dwarves are rubbish at hunting and that elves are really good
It is fine to say that DD are highly effective at group battles
These you will get general agreement in a peaceful fashion
The strength of opinion is when there is a feeling that the level of the divide is such that a change needs to be made. This threshold is based upon individual perception and will differ depending on which faction one normally uses, strength of ones own build (can misdiagnose weakness of faction with weakness of ones own character build) and combat level.
When people moan that they often lose, and blame a specific faction (all allowable stuff, they have done nothing wrong and relevant from their perceptions) they tend to lump in all judgements of weakness on the weakness of their faction or strength of another without considering the relative strengths of themselves or inherent variation.
I have played a tourney and won less than 50%. My faction was not weak, I was as often faced better opponents with higher FL. Some people compensate for this in their views, others do not. PErsonally, I just talk a lot though. I;ll argue the otherside of most points anyone makes :) | The only broken thing is DoF.
I strongly feel it needs to be Level Based. In a Group battle, a Level 10 with a DoF can give -50% Defense to a Level 20. That's not right. | I strongly feel it needs to be Level Based. In a Group battle, a Level 10 with a DoF can give -50% Defense to a Level 20. That's not right.
I agree.
But I also feel that its pretty much the only thing stopping tribals. | | They should seriously consider, limiting the tiles the fiends can jump onto. OR it is just not enough if there is already such limit. grouped with additional dark magic it's too overbearing. | @ RR:
If you say , DD does not deal damage then i am surprised. The fiends leap (even with curse) and horses deal considerable dmg. Group it with additionally effective dark magic and tempt's hypno, and you have a match that is 50-60% won.
Not whinning, just my observations, so far. | to person who think DD is above average.
so why do you still play other faction instead of DD ?
why demon is the least played faction ? (5.6%) | it is meaningless to speak without some real example.
check the winning rate of this guy (traditional dd with pos in mixed cg) for example:
https://www.lordswm.com/pl_warlog.php?id=6503878
you may compare it with other factions in the same level with pos, for example:
https://www.lordswm.com/pl_warlog.php?id=5044162&page=3
I strongly recommend you to try dd yourself in mixed cg, to beating a faction, the most important thing is to know it yourself in detail. you will get the weakness of them after you try, thus not be scared for them afterward. | | To be fair, with the players above, there is a big stat difference between the two. | No one is going to get to an agreed conclusion with all people with regard to whether almost any faction is over powered to the extent of needing to be changed. There are too many variables and personal perception too varied. What is relevant for one is not to another. Strength of DD at lvl 16 is different to lvl17 etc etc.
All we can do is trust that the admins look at balancing (they have fairly regularly tweaked balance so a fair assumption) and that if any one faction is statistically significantly dominating then they would adjust.
My suspicion however for some factions is that some high level skilled players have a good record with them, as a result of a good faction and of course being highly skilled and with good character build. Some people see that, and try out the same set up, but without the experience of the faction and skill level to match. With a small total population of people, these people trying it out because they thing it is good and overpowered, will win less and potentially have a statistically significant impact.
The thing I would recommend focusing on however is making sure your faction skill level, build and character development is such that everyone looks at you and thinks your faction is the best because of your win rate. At the end of the day there is only one thing we can control, and that is what we do, don;t worry too much about the rest unless like me you just like talking ;) | I remember DD not being that strong in lev 12 and such, but once you get to higher levels it gets stronger and stronger. It has too many major stacks, and darkness being as efficient as it is, is a killer. I think DE needs some nerf at higher levels.
The biggest problem is balancing is that you can't simply balance a faction, to truly balance it you need to balance it with respect to each of the remaining classes of factions. This can't be done based on how things work right now, which is usually just removing troops. What needs to be done is making some factions stronger/weaker against some specific factions. For eg., bw dof will be specifically weakened to 1%*sp instead of 2%*sp against def builds. Here def build would need a definition too. Or it can be a continuous relation instead of discrete, so something like 1.5%*att/def per sp would be an example.
The problem with this then is that this is way too complicated... admins would need to carefully analyze many combinations of match-ups and exactly what can make those battles fairer. Increasing or reducing troops based on avg. score is far simpler.
Anyway, one faction not might be, but must be slightly better or worse than another, but no faction is too good clearly, no faction never loses against other factions, so the balancing is as good as it can be I think. | It has too many major stacks, and darkness being as efficient as it is, is a killer. I think DE needs some nerf at higher levels.
Not DE, I meant DD. Also by efficient I mean from fsl bonus for DD. | it is meaningless to speak without some real example.
check the winning rate of this guy (traditional dd with pos in mixed cg) for example:
https://www.lordswm.com/pl_warlog.php?id=6503878
you may compare it with other factions in the same level with pos, for example:
https://www.lordswm.com/pl_warlog.php?id=5044162&page=3
Does it come as a surprise that a character with 12 gold medals in PvP faires better than one with just one bronze and 4 times as much experience in CG? | I think "real" while true is not the same as fully reflective of the general population
using my recent combats as a selection tool and using just the last page of combatsto find win rate for CG or tournament fights, picking only those with FL12 as main - this should highlight as well those who CG a lot
DD - https://www.lordswm.com/pl_info.php?id=3751109
won 27/35
tribal - https://www.lordswm.com/pl_info.php?id=6371714
won 8/17
Tamer DE - https://www.lordswm.com/pl_info.php?id=5086692
won 5/15
Charmer - https://www.lordswm.com/pl_info.php?id=776756
won 9/23
BW - https://www.lordswm.com/pl_info.php?id=4489625
won 17/30
Not conclusive, not enough people - but suggestive
This is simply my direct experience, the DD I have observed win more often | To add to this and to balance it a little
The DD also has the best charcter build - this will factor into his higher win rate as well
The tribal and charmer both lack TG
The Tamer has low antifaction
It is simple to see individuals of a faction with super win rates and conclude it is down 'just' to the faction, this is not valid - it is also due to the charcter build, though there is a selection bias in our thinking, we tend to remember the faction and the losses against them, but not the subtle details around it. | | just example how easy can DD be as an enemy,if not proper play | | https://www.lordswm.com/war.php?lt=-1&warid=864050131 | Yeah, or it can look impossible from the start:
https://www.lordswm.com/war.php?lt=-1&warid=864033937
If you wonder about first move of genies, that was my only chance to kill the vermins before being seduced and have all my mana drained. | I have to say (Speaking about the "Weak" Factions now, and not the "Above the average" Factions) that there is a reason why it is very very rare to see people play Classic Barb, Classic Wiz, or Alt Necro, for a reason...
- Fury Barb does everything Classic Barb does, but better:
Lower Talent costs (All have Expert Luck easily, as well as other stuff), more Ranged army (Orcs AND many Ranged Goblins), better melee units (Head-Hunter Ogre better than Ogre Magi, one Orc has 2 attacks while the other has one only... In Wolves and Birds not so exaggerated difference, though) ...
- BattleWiz can cast Powerful Magicks , while still damaging in Melee (You can build it full Chaos, or DoF plus Might Talents), whereas Classic Wiz can only cast Magicks.
Im not gonna talk about DoF because it has been talked about a lot, but I mean BattleWiz gives WAY WAY MORE to a battle than a Classic Wiz does (Archers, Fortune Genies, DoF... (Crazy assasination, supported by Magick stuff)
Chaos Wiz would just sit, Defend, and cast Magicks, thing which a BW can do (With less HP, thats true), but supporting and hitting in Melee aswell...
>Due to this (After desperate searches and trying new stuff) people have found out Might Classic Wiz (Full Might, or Hybrid Might-Holy), which you actually get a Gold Medal with, but Classic Wizs werent meant to go Might in first place (Which is OK, because they have a way to do stuff at least now with this Build...)
But my point is clear, you all have seen what a BW can do, no reason to go Classic much.
- Might Necro just neglects Alt Necro so hard, even though this time (In this comparisons Im making) they are totally different Builds/Gameplays/Styles.
Might necro may just go full Defence talents, and be very very resilient while having decent Damage, or may pick Dark Talents and support with that, or deny the enemy aswell. Also beautiful ranged power, and a lot of Melee "Meat".
Alt Necro just finds himself with one tool: Raise, nothing more. No archers, awful Talent Branches and costs (Luck costs double than Elves', and Offence is like 11 Talent points). Also, they have to spend 35 Talent points and 10 points into Kn to use their Racial, so they enter battle with disadvantage in Talents and Stats...
Lets not deny the truth/reality, please, you all know you never see these in CG at all.
My point this time in the post is not to talk about "Strong", but rather about the "Weaker" ones.
Please Revamp the Talent Wheels, some of the Units, or the whole classes. |
This topic is long since last update and considered obsolete for further discussions.
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