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Should the Cost of Chaos Branch in Demons be lowered?


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AuthorShould the Cost of Chaos Branch in Demons be lowered?
Idk if this should be in InS Forum (But would break the "Dont ask for Buff" Local Rule), or the Balance Forum in '.Ru' (No CG 2, and dont speak Russian xD), or even Queries and Help (Because I dont want an 'Answer', but an 'Opinion'), or whatever, but Nvm :P

Anyway... Pew Pew!!!
I was thinking about Playable Builds for Demon (Faction with biggest amount of possible Builds apparently, Imho), and I've been wondering how Chaos would work at my level... Like for days/weeks.

Thing is, it is somewhat openly known, that Chaos Demon needs Last Breath to be played, otherwise you die fast in Deep Shame... :P
... As well as the Hell Fire, and the talent that increases Hell Fire (Obvious thing, this one).

>>> Main Issue!:
You begin to count the Talents required for all of this stuff, and you realize you need SEVENTY TWO (72) Talent Points, for the Build to be somewhat 'Effective'.
https://www.lordswm.com/skillwheel_demo.php?f=7&c=0
Btw this, without choosing to take Expert Chaos, or the Sorcery Branch...
You get 75 Talent Points in CL 18, I think.

I was wondering why Demon has to take the Defence Branch to be effective, till realized:
- Demon is the Faction with lowest HP in the game (I think? Not sure).
- The other Magic Factions, have stuff to 'Resist' more (Mini Art of Wiz + Possibility to Flee/Hide, super high HP of DE + Delay of Witches, Raise of UN).

It is true though, that maybe Demon has more 'DPS' than the other Magic Builds.
But Idk, it feels like you have to Build with a Penalty/Handicap of -40 Talent Points almost, Lol.

>>> Proof: Results of Chaos Build for Demons, in last Minor Tournament:
http://lgnd.ru/mt40/rating/lvl/0/r/7/b/1
Note, ALL the guys/girls with a Gold/Silver Medal, are CL 18+. Except for one.
Thats because at CL 18 you can get Last Breath + the Hell Fire stuff.

Is true this Build got Buffed, changing Hell Fire Dmg from Fire, to Physical (Thus avoiding all Magic Res, OP), which is awesome.

> ... Thing Im saying with this Post, is that the Build is NOT 'Weak', but I highlight how it is very very 'Unplayable', Pre CL 18.

Btw, I did not mention how you run out of Mana with this Build like 99% of the times, but I didnt Highlight this issue, because its not what I wanted to Focus on. :P

Again, as I always say: Not 'Complaining', really.
... Just opening a question in public, and wanting to know others' opinions and views about the issue.
I don't think it should, I quite like the idea that certain builds are only available at higher builds, similar to elf rush build (tactics, innate swiftness and luck),
I agree with Meshy. If cost of talents are lowered to make the build available sooner, it might become overpowered in higher levels.
While I support most of your ideas, this one is not my favourite :P

over
In my opinion the only thing that makes mage builds playable is the stat buffs you get from the factions abilities.

So with this in mind it might be interesting to introduce a creature count buff based on sp/kn which would address mage demons major weakness, this would counter the reason last breath is needed for survivability.

Of course such a thing would take time to balance, time that they dont want to put into improving mage builds unfortunately.

The difference between this and an elf rush build is that is a slight tweak in play style right compared to an entire magic tree?
Should the Cost of Chaos Branch in Demons be lowered?


No.

/opinion.
10 talent points too expensive for you ?

classic wizard has 10 cost as well and their main style requires chaos ;)

btw dwarf pays 11 TP for chaos branch.

only darkelf has 9. they are the least HP faction. demon can gate, with gates, its total HP is more than anything :D

play might demon till you can reach lvl 18 before enjoying last breath + hellfire. we all did and not complained like you.
10 talent points too expensive for you ?
classic wizard has 10 cost as well and their main style requires chaos ;)
btw dwarf pays 11 TP for chaos branch.

I explained how the issue is not the Cost of Chaos itself in Demon, but how the TOTAL Cost of Chaos + Defence is too high, taking into account you MUST pick the Defence branch, or you die in 2 Turns.

The difference between playing Chaos in Demon, and in any other Faction, in terms of Talents, is that its not playable at all in CG if you dont get Defence Branch in Demon.
> The rest of Chaos Factions are pretty much playable CL 8+, or even before.

In any other Faction, you can go Chaos, and you barely need some Talents to play "Decently".
Chaos Demon is not playable before CL 18, and we all know that.
(You dont see Chaos Demon Pre 18, and you know it aswell).

only darkelf has 9. they are the least HP faction. demon can gate, with gates, its total HP is more than anything :D
^ ??? You realize you dont have to kill the Gated in Demon to kill him, right?
Which means his "Real" HP is very very low.

Also, you mention Dark Elf:
Dark Elf wins Defence off his SP+Kn, which I forgot to mention in the Main Post.
All Chaoses get ways to "Resist" more a bit, except Demon, so he must pick Last Breath.

play might demon till you can reach lvl 18 before enjoying last breath + hellfire. we all did and not complained like you.
I write in the last sentence how its not really a "Complaint"
Just impressed that Chaos Demon is not playable at all before 18, then it becomes "Strong".

>>> But Nvm, I suppose its just my Will to play Magick on every Faction...
The day I buy Dwarf Castle, I may open another thread about the things he needs for "Chaos Dwarf" to be "Meta"... xD
^ Speaking of which, lower Chaos in Dwarf too. :P
Heehheh.

Patriarchs have just the "Sexy" Skill for x2 Dmg Fireball.
I bet in my level chaos demon beats chaos DE. even I won more than loss to those with my terrible overall win rate :d

??? You realize you dont have to kill the Gated in Demon to kill him, right?

guess you are charging with you real troops 1st and get yourself killed before utilise your gates.

well, you dont have tier 7 upgrade yet. they ( both main and gated) even summon more tier 6 troops. watch some of my last month defenses. used red might demon ;)

ps: isn't it a bit idiotic to ask above question to someone who have about 14 times more demon fsp than you have ?
??? You realize you dont have to kill the Gated in Demon to kill him, right?

Fun question to ask a guy with fsl 10 :D


A chaos demon will often gate infront of their own troops as part of their defence, in that case it's really hard to kill real troops without having to kill demon, that's their resist.


And you don't have to take hellfire build, you can try the classic expert sorcery and chaos talent build, hellfire build is a build that's "unlocked" at higher levels (similar to how you progress through a conventional game and you can buy/ find better things).
Don't know about current scenario after previous rebalancing, but when i was lvl 11, hellfire demons were ruling with mistress DU. So clearly saying its not good for lower levels is wrong.
Also i have seen hellfire demons beating other chaosers and defensive builds, only problem they face are against rushers like charmers or dwarf even more dangerous, thanes with luck can clear most of tropps if location of rune usage is perfect.
I would have thought a chaos demon against another chaos user would struggle, since in that scenario the gated troops can be ignored, since magic can be cast anywhere, they can (mostly)ignore the gates. And therefore exploit the lower actual hp, compared to wiz or DE.
If they ignore gates, gates can cause trouble with helfire.
Don't forget high init of gated cerbs and horses ;) also riccocet shot of mistress just works great with hellfire.
oh I agree, thats why I said (mostly) ignore, cerbs hitting 3 enemies, mistress with 4 art particular threats, horses potentially causing fleeing of troops into the centre and therefore exposure to more attacks. These would be addressed by troops and the likes of lores etc as mucg as possible to allow main damage from hero to non gated.
Maybe it's time for you to change game insteed of trying to change a game you don't know or understand or even like from what I have seen from your hundrends posts since day 1 I registered.
I dont think there should be a problem with him coming up with ideas even if you disagree. Think about how much the balance of the game has changed since you joined, i mean this change wouldnt be as big as barb faction skill change
Maybe it's time for you to STOP JUDGING.
Player banned by moderator Meshy until 2018-09-06 15:24:01 // FR 4.2.1 // Abuse of capitalisation - warning
There are certain builds intended for high level use for a reason. There is no use trying to change it. If you truly want to play hellfire demon effectively then you will have to put the work into it and reach that level.


Gives you something to look forward to in the future.
^ Valid point.
Just like wizards wait to get senior genies before start playing might.
for Calamity:
No need that arrogant attitude of yours.
Be respectful to others because it shows your character.

Back to topic.
I think hell fire demon is fine as it is.
Some build meant to be unlocked/playable later. Ie : critical spell chaos DE
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