| Author | Discussing moderator actions |
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I have put this as a separate thread so that if deemed not appropriate it can be easily deleted and locked as relevant. This is a directed question for a limited number of people, and so I ask people not to comment on it unnecessarily unless they are genuinely in a position to be able to know the answer.
for Meshy:
Can I seek clarification of preventing discussion on moderator action as I do not fully understand. I am asking publically as I do not think I am isolated in this lack of understanding and hence wish us all to be educated simultaneously. If this is inappropriate then I am happy to defer to your ruling. I am not disputing any actions, merely seeking understanding and clarification.
From my understanding you may be referring to any of the following forum rules.
1.5. Moderator's actions can be disputed by putting in an application to the game Secretary (thread link and detailed description of the application cause required)
This rule is written in the positive of what can be done to challenge a ruling. It is not written in the negative saying what cannot be done, and hence I am unsure how it could be applied to prohibit discussion. One could take a tacit understanding that if it can be disputed with the secretary then it cannot in any other way, though my understanding of legalities would mean that this would not be a strong enough argument to hold
OF course this rule is clear
5.1. Administration's actions and decisions are not subject to discussion.
though moderators are not the admin so I did not think this referred to them given in other parts if mentions members of official clans seperately.
There is then this part
5.4. Flashmobs (ref. par.4.3.) directed at criticizing official clan members' actions are punished severely, beginning with 1 month ban up to blocking the character without a chance of being unblocked.
Which to be relevant would require any actions to be categorised as a flashmob, which by the admins definition is as follows
4.3. Flashmobs on our forums are forbidden. Flashmobs are events when a player or a group of players post multiple messages of similar content in order to promote a topic, sink a different topic or provoke a moderator to lock or delete an important topic.
I would think this does not constitute a flashmob, peoples actions were not trying to promote it but giving there opinions.
Finally moderators have the freedom to create local rules I believe, but I do not think one has been written relating to that point.
What have I missed? |
In short. I am applying the interpretation of the rules of the mods previous to me. This allows a consistent experience and helps prevent confusion.
Though of course, if this is the wrong interpretation, let secretary know and we will be told to change our approach. |
Thank you Meshy.
Consistency is good, though presumably should be consistent to the rules rather than what had happened before with local rules created as relevant. Are there any current active moderators from when this decision was made to then follow and be consistent with to explain? |
| I'm sure a lot of us are interested in the answer too. So, Meshy, can you elaborate? What is your interpretation of the rules? |
It is truly disappointing that it has gotten to this point at the direct expense of forum quality.
I started with the game in 2009 and back then the English speaking in game community was booming. The forums had dozens of active threads each day and the in game chat was lively with up to ~30 people in the inquiry room at any given time and 50 at peak. The clan scene was very active and there were about 5 pro .com military clans and maybe 10 more decent ones. Now we have 2 (1.5)
Sadly this is no longer the case. This is for a variety of reasons but primarily the merge in 2013 and the seriously dwindling English player base due to lack of advertisement. However community wise we have really shot ourselves in the foot. The moderators here do good work, they are active, dedicated and in many cases have given years of their time to the cause but there are problems too.
Unfortunately lwm is now more heavily moderated than almost anywhere on the internet. Whether this is a product of rules, individuals or other external factors is not that clear but this turns players away. Most active players who use the forum will at some point run into post deletion, ban etc. and it makes people think twice about posting. This is especially true when punishments are handed out for something trivial. There are rules about using the wrong bracket, too many ellipsis etc. add in interpretation of the rules and we end up in a farcical situation where the players don't know what is safe to post, the moderators don't know what to ban and everybody walks on eggshells. As an ex moderator in the early game I understand the difficulty.
It is clear to everybody that for the forum to continue healthily there needs to be some kind of change of approach in moderating style or alteration of the rules. In my view the overall number of deleted posts and bans should go down, these should be reserved for the most serious offences. Some of the lesser infringements should be forgiven or not enforced.
I really used to value the lwm community and it honestly saddens me to see how far it has fallen. I wish the players and the moderators could find some kind of balance that works for everybody. |
So, Meshy, can you elaborate? What is your interpretation of the rules?
My interpretation is the one I have seen. If my interpretation was difference and I enforced that interpretation, then people would be complaining about 2 different interpretations being enforced rather than a single one.
Unfortunately lwm is now more heavily moderated than almost anywhere on the internet.
I would love to see where the data is to support this claim you have.
From my experience as a moderator here, and one of those people who aren't in the two ".com" clans, very often things can get out of hand quickly with clan members rushing to the forums and piling on, due to this fact, whilst I would much prefer to use a softer touch (less work for me), it's not always possible. |
in my view people resort to direct insults and accusations too quickly in forum.
whether its because they dont understand or not willing to try and understand other peoples view, i dont know.
but as a result of this it is easier to end things as soon as their is a hint of it beginning, rather then letting it play out and result in another forum war |
Unfortunately lwm is now more heavily moderated than almost anywhere on the internet. Whether this is a product of rules, individuals or other external factors is not that clear but this turns players away. Most active players who use the forum will at some point run into post deletion, ban etc. and it makes people think twice about posting. This is especially true when punishments are handed out for something trivial. There are rules about using the wrong bracket, too many ellipsis etc. add in interpretation of the rules and we end up in a farcical situation where the players don't know what is safe to post, the moderators don't know what to ban and everybody walks on eggshells. As an ex moderator in the early game I understand the difficulty.
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Hi, I would like to thank Lord MilesTeg for bringing this up and making the point very maturely. It seems that the rules are not precise and the current enforcement is for the sake of consistency.
Since the forum is for the community, I would like to suggest a few changes that, in my opinion, will qualitatively improve the forum. Since some players are not happy with the existing practices of moderation, it is useful to think about making a change and looking at a new set of practices.
Some suggestions:
1. Do not close topics before a day of inactivity. Sometimes, topics are created after I sleep and closed before I wake up. Forums are meant to promote discussion and a topic's discussion has a lot of context which is lost when creating a new topic.
2. Do not use words the community finds inappropriate like 'stupid'. These are demeaning. Quoting forum rules when deleting text is fine and it does not make the player feel bad.
3. Forum wars ruin the reading experience a lot less than deleted pieces of text. Abuse can be redacted immediately. But other things - have a much lighter touch. A forum war is at least interesting. And, sometimes, players mix flames with objectivity. Also, standards of objectivity vary. Players are bound to mix personal emotions.
4. Closing a topic after banning people is pointless. If players are banned, then the problem is solved. Why close the topic then? I wanted to add to the leader's guild thread but it was closed.
5. Redact text only for abuses. Otherwise, ban the player if you have to, leave a comment, but do not redact it. This is similar to 3, but the reasoning behind why differs. The player who made the effort to participate in the discussion feels better that his effort in contributing is not wasted. If the moderator comment is well-written, it informs others what the problem with the original offending piece of text was. |
I would love to see where the data is to support
Clearly (as i'm sure you're already aware) there is no data or objective way to compare the moderation of every single community on the internet. I have no idea what kind of numbers you're expecting me to provide, however anecdotally the claim still has merit.
Personally i'm a heavy forum user i'm subscribed to a plethora of forums, feeds, comment sections and subreddits. All in about 170 online communities - none have issues like we do here. In fact i'm struggling to name any other moderators apart from those on lwm because they mostly operate in the background with a very light touch as opposed to front and centre. Aside from automoderator I have never really experienced problems with having my posts deleted. Certainly nowhere else is there this comically childish low-key civil war between users and moderators.
Blaming the clans is an easy out, truth is the majority of serious .com players are in one or the other (or AK) so it's a moot point. Despite this the forum actually seems to refrain from being excessively tribal. In my years of use I would never describe anything I have seen here as being 'out of hand' like you seem to suggest happens all the time.
When moderators delete posts and ban players they have to ask themselves objectively:
'Is what i'm doing actively improving the forum and encouraging engagement, or is it just shutting down discussion?'
Too often, for whatever reason, it is the latter and that is at least part of the reason that forum use has dropped so markedly. |
Is what i'm doing actively improving the forum and encouraging engagement?
I am sorry for piling on but this is a really good point. If every decision is taken with this in mind, mistakes will happen but on the whole, the community will move in the right direction, led by moderators. |
I would love to see where the data is to support this claim you have.
I have played a lot of online game and have been active in the forum of those game. Trust me, this game has the most pathetic forum ever. More like a snowflakes forum. |
| Topic moved from "Queries and help" to "General game forum". |
Moved to GGF as this has become a discussion
Don't want to be accused of burying |
I would love to see where the data is to support this claim you have.
[/quote
The data you seek would merely be the players who have been witnessing everything.
In my humble view, I believe that the forums is being actively censored. It wasn't like this a year back.
If someone makes a comment against the view of a majority of people or a moderator as long as it isn't deemed punishable by the rules, I don't think there is anything wrong in that. After all it is someone's OPINION. Deleting the post or banning the person is only going to fuel the fire.
Censoring that is only going to prevent people from speaking out.
Also coming to the topic of interpretation of messages by moderators, I believe that in my personal opinion it is being abused. I have seen it on the forum a couple of times, I haven't spoken out about it fearing backlash nor do I wish to name the incidents.
I really hope to see more red and fights in the battlefields rather than the forum. |
tbh i agree that the forum did not see so much red last time...
but it cannot be denied that the forum has been growing significantly toxic especially for event related posts...
almost EVERY single post sees much dissatisfaction with some or more parts of the event and almost always results in arguments on more often then not the same thing for each event...
for normal forum readers like me who occasionally pop in to throw some random comments, it is still rather bearable and can be a form of entertainment to see the debate between players...
however i believe for moderators who are supposed to moderate and provide their input towards such debates, it quickly becomes a chore to reply to the same accusations again and again...
while i do not take any side on this issue in particular and i believe what i am about to say is not related to the related incident...
i do have to once again point out the toxicity/negativity in the forum...
providing an opinion and instigating others to take a negative stand against the game is rather different...
while there certainly are many points that are sorely lacking and many instances of bad planning in many events, almost every game i play make stupid/unpopular decisions from time to time which get a whole load of protest from their players, but even then many a time nothing is done and the game goes on...
as a minority group who is certainly not the priority of the game devs, maybe there is a better approach to voicing out negative opinions apart from listing them out again and again and putting sarcasm and trying to condemn others who are not on the same side as you??
what are you trying to achieve? get everybody else to side with you and wallow in the despair that the game is not fun not fair and a load of bullcrap?
then everybody quits and the english community officially dies???
opinion is good but let it be without poison and more constructive in nature...
else it isnt going to do anything except push the already dwindling players away.... |
The problem is that instead of reacting to what is actually being said, they result into personal remarks instead. In other words they rely on Ad Hominem to silence the made valid arguments. And when you defend to their personal attack you get your posts deleted and banned from the forum.
When 'certain' players can make personal remarks and when you react back to that you are the one getting their post deleted and banned, that there sais enough about the bias of the moderation. This way of 'moderation' has stopped me a lot of even posting anything on this forum, even stopped looking at it for long periods. |
Do not use words the community finds inappropriate like 'stupid'.
I want to publicly apologize for my behavior, it wasn't in any way acceptable.
I regret it, and I'm truly sorry. |
I always thought Russians are a big competition, but I think till .com has it's competition with .com itself , it's just bad to say we are far away from success , just getting more and more seperated with every coming day
Many would say it's part of our success road , yeah 'sure!' let's see in the future .. |
| The moderation in my mind is mostly not such a huge issue. However, the response when a mistake was made was on my mind incorrect. No one conceding a mistake was made and then preventing anyone from highlighting this issue properly. However, discussion had been allowed and an apology made (good man Syrian). As such let us take these gestures if good will in a positive light and look forward to a better situation with hopefully a slightly more transparent hand |
