| Author | Shield Guard --> The Mechanics |
|---|
Has someone figured out how exactly this ability works?
Beaming spirits deal 139 damage to Praetorians. 5 perish.
Beaming spirits deal 326 damage to Vestals. 13 perish.
Beaming spirits deal 138 damage to Praetorians. 4 perish.
Beaming spirits deal 323 damage to Templar marksmen. 11 perish.
The ability says there's a 50% damage reduction, and the praetorians negate half of that.
Looking at these numbers, it's clear to me that that's not the case.
So let me state all the questions:
1] Is the damage reduction actually 50% or less than that?
2] How much % do the Praetorians negate, because 25% would not explain why then consistently take 1/3 the damage of main stack.
3] What's the mechanics for when multiple praetorians surround a troop? |
The ability says there's a 50% damage reduction, and the praetorians negate 25% of that.
|
for ProZyk:
Because they have higher armor bro. The damage is transferred to them without counting the defence parameter |
| No. Beaming spirits have 15 attack there, while my defence is 60 and 66 for the two troops. 6 defence change doesn't explain massive difference in damage taken. |
| Due to the random damage (Min and Max) it has been difficult to determine the exact functioning of this ability. If someone has a fight against creatures having constant damage (Min and Max equal), please share. You could use curse at expert efficiency too, anything with a constant damage please. Will help very much in figuring out this ability. |
https://www.lordswm.com/war.php?lt=-1&warid=1092914000&html5=1&show_for_all=Le59f450ebc
Let me calculate for this fight.
Enemy angels have 54-54 damage, so there should be no variation.
And their attack is 58 in this fight (due to attack armament), so it's very close my defence, and I can examine the impact of defence of praetorians more closely.
First one calculation for sanity check.
Blade of Judgement = +20% (Does this work?)
Faction resistance works?
6 Seraphs, 58 Attack 54-54 damage
Praetorians 66 defence
Basic Defense = -10%
Seraphs deal 208 damage to Praetorians. 6 perish.
Damage = N * R(min, max) * [1 - 3*Y/100] / [1 + 0,05*(D-A)] = 6 * 54 (0.9) / (1.4) = 208
Okay, so Blade of Judgement doesn't work (even though these seraphs were themselves also attacked before this turn).
Conclusion: Blade of Judgement doesn't work in hunts. And there's no faction resistance.
Our calculations are in line with expectation excluding those two variables.
Now moving on the case at hand.
8 Seraphs, 58 Attack, 54-54 damage
Vestals 60 defence,
Praetorians 66 defence
Seraphs deal 49 damage to Praetorians. 2 perish.
Seraphs deal 177 damage to Vestals. 7 perish.
Damage To Vestals = N * R(min, max) / [1 + 0,05*(D-A)] = 8 * 54 (0.9) / (1.1) = 353
353/2 = 176.5
1] Is the damage reduction actually 50% or less than that?
So I can confirm that this is indeed 50% reduction to Vestals.
Hypothetical direct Damage to Praetorians = 8 * 54 * 0.9 / 1.4 = 277
Expected damage to Praetorians (if defence mattered) = 277 *0.75/2 = 103
Expected Damage to Praetorians if their defence didn't matter = 353 * 0.75 / 2 = 132
Actual damage to Praetorians = 49
Actual damage Negation to Praetorians (if defence matters) = 65%
Actual damage Negation to Praetorians (if defense doesn't matter) = 72%
To figure out if defence matters or not, I'll have to check in one more instance against a troop that's not Vestals.
15 Seraphs
Beaming Spirit 54 defence
Seraphs deal 92 damage to Praetorians. 2 perish.
Seraphs deal 437 damage to Beaming spirits. 6 perish.
Hypothetical direct Damage to Praetorians = 15 * 54 * 0.9 / 1.4 = 520
Hypothetical direct Damage to Spirit = 15 * 54 * 0.9 * 1.2 = 874
Actual damage to Praetorians = 92
Actual damage Negation to Praetorians (if defence matters) = 65%
Actual damage Negation to Praetorians (if defense doesn't matter) = 79%
How much % do the Praetorians negate, because 25% would not explain why then consistently take 1/3 the damage of main stack.
That 65% is common both times.
So Conclusion:
1) Defense of Praetorians does matter
2) They Negate 65% damage rather than 50% as mentioned.
Any thoughts? |
| 2) They Negate 65% damage rather than 25% as mentioned. |
| As I understand that description I would expect 50 % of the damage to go to original target, and 25%to go to the praetorians, with the remaining 25% being negated. I haven't scrutinised your math but it at least looks approximately correct. |
Shield Guard: Whenever an enemy creature attacks a commanded creature adjacent to this one, this creature redirects half of the damage to itself, negating 25% of that half.
As I understand that description I would expect 50 % of the damage to go to original target, and 25%to go to the praetorians, with the remaining 25% being negated.
I must disagree. It specifically states that it's 25% of the half that's negated.
And even if your description were true, we'd expect 50% damage negation (on top of the 50% being being redirected to it), and not 65% as the calculation indicates. |
1) Defense of Praetorians does matter
2) They Negate 65% damage rather than 50% as mentioned.
Excellent!
Now we just need to figure out for multiple praetorians |
25%to go to the praetorians, with the remaining 25% being negated.
Seraphs deal 49 damage to Praetorians. 2 perish.
Seraphs deal 177 damage to Vestals. 7 perish.
Hypothetical direct Damage to Praetorians = 8 * 54 * 0.9 / 1.4 = 277
That should mean the Seraphs must've dealt 277/4 = 69.25 damage. But they only dealt 49. |
for ProZyk:
I see what you mean, just trying to figure a way that it makes sense with their description. As such I figure a translation ambiguity with regard to the ficus if 'that' is more likely than them putting 50% instead of 65.
I was trying to work the numbers incase it was then considered as ranged damage to the praetorians and so gained benefit of the ranges defence. Based on how it widths with things life dragon breath, where the first stack hit is melee, but the second is ranged. |
I agree that translation ambiguity is also a likely factor.
I was trying to work the numbers incase it was then considered as ranged damage to the praetorians and so gained benefit of the ranges defence. Based on how it widths with things life dragon breath, where the first stack hit is melee, but the second is ranged.
Oh yeah. This could be a possibility.
I do have 29% ranged resistance in that fight against seraphs. But then I'll have to exclude 10% from Basic Defense.
Hypothetical direct Damage to Praetorians = 15 * 54 * 0.9 / 1.4 = 520
Hypothetical direct Damage to Spirit = 15 * 54 * 0.9 * 1.2 = 874
Actual damage to Praetorians = 92
Actual damage Negation to Praetorians (if defence matters) = 65%
Actual damage Negation to Praetorians (if defense doesn't matter) = 79%
New calculation:
Hypothetical direct Damage to Praetorians = 15 * 54 * 0.71/1.4 = 410
Actual damage to Praetorians = 92
Actual damage Negation to Praetorians (if defence matters) = 55% ---> Close, but not done yet.
But wait.
What if I include the Basic Defense still (even though it's now a ranged hit hypothesis).
Hypothetical direct Damage to Praetorians = 15 * 54 * 0.71 * 0.9/1.4 = 369
Actual damage to Praetorians = 92
Actual damage Negation to Praetorians (if defence matters) = 50% !!!
Okay so we are close to our answer here.
As I understand that description I would expect 50 % of the damage to go to original target, and 25%to go to the praetorians, with the remaining 25% being negated. I haven't scrutinised your math but it at least looks approximately correct. With the twist that melee resistance on original target, and ranged resistance on Praetorians both combine, while defense of only Praetorians is used to calculate the damage on them.
This makes ranged resistance so much more useful with these creatures!
Now comes the twist. What if it's a ranged attack on marksmen, next to praetorians. Would you apply the ranged resistance twice (quite OP, and equivalent to our scenario above) or only once.
Can only test this if there's a ranged troop that does fixed damage to troop next to Praetorians. Share a link if you have such a case, and I'll gladly calculate it for you. |
I think I have a variation of the numbers that hits the 49 damage.
Assumption 1.
The extra 20% damage from seraphs ability does work, should the stack have dealt damage in a prior engagement. Ie retaliation damage does not consider it, though if the stack had dealt damage in a prior attack it would.
Assumption 2
The diverted damage is considered as ranged and so ranged modifiers work
Assumption 3
The translation relates to 50% of the original damage being diverted to the prateorians, and of that original damage 25% is negated.
As such for the first engagement the relevant modifiers are
8 stacks dealing 54 damage each
Defence-Attack = 8
25% ranged defence from shield
29% ranged resistance from equipment
As such 100% original damage would be 54*8*0.71*0.75*1.2/1.4 = 197.18
If in practice 25% of this goes to the praetorians then this is 197.18/4 = 49.3
Et voila!
Can someone check this and duplicate with other data and see if it works? |
8 stacks dealing 54 damage each
Defence-Attack = 8
25% ranged defence from shield
29% ranged resistance from equipment
Basic Defense Talent? |
25% ranged defence from shield
I missed this!
So we've both managed to get 50% by playing with the numbers!
The reason we've hit the same sweet 50% is that 0.75*1.2 = 0.9
You assumed shielded and + 20% bonus seraph dame, while I assumed 10% from Basic Defense.
Clearly you are correct since shielded cannot be ignored here.
So my previous conclusion of Basic Defense applying for praetorians was wrong and that can now be forgotten! Please ignore post 13 entirely.
The extra 20% damage from seraphs ability does work, should the stack have dealt damage in a prior engagement. Ie retaliation damage does not consider it, though if the stack had dealt damage in a prior attack it would. I don't like this assumption, but it fits. So I'll leave it at that.
1] Is the damage reduction actually 50% or less than that?
2] How much % do the Praetorians negate, because 25% would not explain why then consistently take 1/3 the damage of main stack.
Final Conclusion on this.
1] Attacked troop take 50% damage of what it would otherwise have.
2] Praetorians take 25% damage of how much they would taken if directly hit, except that we must use ranged reductions (from equipment and shielded ability, and maybe even talent if have avoidance) instead of melee reductions. |
Ah, so its considered ranged. I see.
And i found a battle where a knight used bless on some ranged troops.
https://www.lordswm.com/war.php?warid=1092610381&show_for_all=Ld46172474d
But they never hit any unit protected by a single Praetorian, always 2 or 3. |
for Void_Moon:
Only relevant if considered as melee, i’m considering it as ranged for the part that goes to Praetorians |
Only relevant if considered as melee
Then now we have to figure out if the ranged resistance from artifacts counts twice in case of being hit by a ranged attack. (Once on the unit being hit, and another from damage directed to Praetorians being considered as ranged damage)
Also, the main stack has its damage reduced by 67% when 2 Praets are near it, and by 75% when 3 are near it. Since its proved that a single Praet reduces damage to main stack by 50% can a formula be found from this?
And I'm also yet to calculate the damage reductions to the praetorians when multiple stacks are close together. |
Then now we have to figure out if the ranged resistance from artifacts counts twice in case of being hit by a ranged attack. (Once on the unit being hit, and another from damage directed to Praetorians being considered as ranged damage)
As per my current understanding, the the modifiers on the unit being hit don't matter at all. Only have to consider praetorians as being hit directly via ranged, and reduce 75% on that. So there's nothing more to figure out here.
And I'm also yet to calculate the damage reductions to the praetorians when multiple stacks are close together.
I found the right battle. Give me some time :p |
