Forums-->Off-game forum-->
1|2
| Author | LITWIN and buying underpriced merchandise |
|---|
As per request of a Mod, this is a continuation of this topic:
https://www.lordswm.com/forum_messages.php?tid=1886191
The topic in brief:
LITWIN bought a Fern flower for 10 gold from a player without any gold. It was below the normal market value 16,000 gold. The transaction was made via the market so the buyer could theoretically be anyone. (In reality only LITWIN got a script fast enough to catch all those good deals.)
The question is if this is illegal. I have an example here:
https://www.lordswm.com/pl_transfers.php?id=4346319
06-11-10 12:46: Player blocked. // from stream_of_blood: "Thief cloak" [60/60], "Thief invitation" [1/1], "Thief dagger" [60/60]: 10-03-09 07:48
He was blocked because of an identical transaction. Someone decided to quit and put items at the market for a few gold.
The conclusion from this is that LITWIN should be blocked. My opinion is that the punishments should be more proportional. A penalty of twice the gained value would be more appropriate.
[Player banned by moderator Barbarian-Fishy until 2010-08-04 16:00:23 // Breach of rule 2.2. It is highly unethical to misrepresent what a mod has said.] | | Agree, either unblock Ektoras or block LITWIN. | | or get brain | not all ppl get blocked most ppl are fined for this of coz if transfered amount goes above some sum of gold u will be blocked.
Btw it doesnt matter if u know character who sold it to u or not u will be punished for this! | not all ppl get blocked most ppl are fined for this of coz if transfered amount goes above some sum of gold u will be blocked.
I didn't know it was certain amounts that makes it punishable by Block. Do you have any idea about what amount it is? Previously, I would have guessed that the intent was a major factor in such cases.
Ektoras bought the items and immediately asked Arctic (the closest thing we had to an Admin at the time) if he could keep them. He did not get an answer. When Lexa came here, Ektoras asked him if he could keep them or if he should send them to Empire. He didn't get an answer, just a block. | When we were doing Jury work, Arctic usually penalized into the negative instead of blocking. Sometimes the amount was so great it basically ended a player's game.
We disagreed with him on certain issues where a player had a gazillion multis that took us half a day to total the crimes. We thought such a player should be blocked outright for such abuse.
Ultimately it was Arctic's call and as far as I know, he had no set number in his head as to when he would block vs penalize with a gold deduction.
I am no friend of Litwin but to compare his find in the market to Ektoras is laughable. As for Ektoras case, clearly he did not act in collusion with the seller as the items were on the market several minutes before he bought them.
Was it wrong? That would be admins call.
If Ektoras had no history of cheating before that, it should be taken into consideration.
I would unblock him and levy a fine. That would be my recommendation as a jurist. We were taught by Arctic and I am pretty sure he would not have blocked him. | 1.Although I appreciate STBs example, I do think its far too extreme for this situation. Concerned authorites have been contacted numerous times about the issue, but obviously for them to take any action they need to log-in.
2.LITWIN and dziadu's counter arguments in said thread are very very weak.
Buying an element for 5k and selling for 5.8k is reselling.
Buying for 10 gold and selling for 16.4k is pure exploitation.
Please use common sense. | Also is this key piece of evidence:
06-07-10 13:17: Transferred element(s): 'Fern flower' 1 pcs. to Empire: This is missing from your vast collection of elements
Looking at the above transaction, it would seem this player had no connection to Litwin in particular. Obviously he did not value elements in the least and Litwin got lucky to scoop the fern up. | @dziadu
I think it would be in the best interest for all concerned if you stopped 'defending' LITWIN with arguments like that...
I have had a brief discussion with LITWIN, and agree with him on one point. There is no clear cut rule that says what he did was illegal. The closest one I could find was:
3.13. Additional characters are not allowed to make presents to anyone, or pay/receive clan taxes/entrance fees. When buying game items from other characters, the prices mustn't differ too much from the average market prices. Trying to wash the money through substitute parties is a serious violation leading to block of the additional characters and penalty to the main one.
However, this is in regard to additional characters only (although, the rule does fall under 3. Game process and using additional characters)
Even if there isn't a rule to oppose LITWIN's actions, the game administrators have seen fit to punish others who have done exactly the same thing as LITWIN did, as STB showed in the first post, so we can be reasonably sure that buying a Fern Flower for 10 gold (when it's current value is atleast 16k) is illegal. | If you're claiming that LITWIN should be blocked, shouldn't you also be calling for megacity to be blocked too?
After all, from the same series of sales involving Ektoras, you can find this -
10-03-09 07:50: Sold item: "Thief crossbow" [60/60] for 1 gold to megacity as lot #900879. Commission: 1
It appears megacity wasn't penalised even though he was involved in the same series of "sales" that Ektoras was. I imagine Ektoras was blocked because of the involvement of a TGI in his transactions. After all General Rule 3.33 makes it clear that dealings including TGIs are more harshly penalized than other infringements. In fact I wouldn;t be surprised if Ektoras was discovered because the admins (or their assistants) were filtering the Transfer Logs for Thief Guild Invitations in particular. The main peculiarity is that Ektoras' purchase of the TGI predated the implementation of General Rule 3.33.
Further investigation reveals that 2 TGIs owned by Ektoras seem to have been later sold by Ektoras to Rex_Santanas (https://www.lordswm.com/pl_transfers.php?id=4543783&page=9) for less than 25K for both. 1 was subsequently returned (https://www.lordswm.com/pl_transfers.php?id=4543783&page=8) but the other appears to have been later sold on by Rex_Santanas, along with his TGI for Thief Level 2 for over 600K each(https://www.lordswm.com/pl_transfers.php?id=4543783). Ektoras sold the TGI that was returned to him for over 310K (https://www.lordswm.com/pl_transfers.php?id=4346319&page=83). Rex_Santana's Transfer Log has "multiple character management rules violation" as the main reason for being blocked, only later mentioning the TGI infringement. The chronology of events seems to be, Ektoras blocked (TGI?) then improper dealings with TGIs leads the investigator to Rex_Santana who is blocked for Multiple Character Management Rules violations (with a side mention of improper TGI dealings) .
So I think the focus regarding Ektoras being blocked was improper dealings with TGI and possible Multi Character involvement. Megacity, who purchased a more item far more valuable than a Fern Flower (Megacity later sold the Thief Crossbow after using almost all it's durability [1/60] for almost 25K - https://www.lordswm.com/pl_transfers.php?id=4527693&page=14).
So if LITWIN deserves to be blocked for this then certainly there are others that would also be blocked. IMO, Ektoras was only blocked because of the involvement of a TGI and the *possible* involvement of a Multi-Character.
Moral of the Story - Don't get involved with shady TGI dealings. You *will* get blocked.
Grunge
PS - Personally, I think that if there were any scripts running with the regularity claimed, the admins should easily be able to detect it from the load on the server from the excessive activity from particular IPs. IMO, LITWIN was just lucky enough to happen on these items before other people noticed. I know that stuff like that has happened to me (I have occasionally found a handful of resources being sold for 350 gold each, for example). | Correction of part of my previous post.
Megacity, who purchased an item far more valuable than a simple Fern Flower (Megacity later sold the Thief Crossbow after using almost all it's durability [1/60] for almost 25K - https://www.lordswm.com/pl_transfers.php?id=4527693&page=14) hasn't been punished, even though there seems to have been significant follow-through by whoever investigated the Ektoras/Rex_Santana TGI affair.
Grunge | Looking at the above transaction, it would seem this player had no connection to Litwin in particular. Obviously he did not value elements in the least and Litwin got lucky to scoop the fern up.
I agree 100% with Modi. The above quote also implies the Ektoras action was legal. The player that Ektoras was buying from, gave away other items and gold to different players at the same time. Ektoras was just (un)lucky to get most of it.
The rule that applies is probably this:
3.15. Large transfers for the reason of leaving the game etc. are forbidden. Presents must not exceed 30% of the monetary property of the character per month. Monetary property is considered: gold + seven primary resources (wood, ore, mercury, sulfur, crystals, gems, leather) only. Rare trophies, Thief invitations, etc. transferred as gifts are valued at market price.
If this rule was applied at Ektoras case, it should clearly apply for LITWIN. Personally, I would say that both Ektoras and LITWINs transactions should be legal or punished lightly. | for Grunge:
Its too easy nowaday to activily change or mask ip. You cannot say that Admin could detect it easily. So personally, I think its totally possible for someone with some brain to run a script on LWM. | #1 STBs
(In reality only LITWIN got a script fast enough to catch all those good deals.)
Yes, i can faster see good offers than You. But you can also create something like me.
- To be more fair, i created a blockade in my script - i cannot buy a item 10 seconds after full page load. Otherwise, i can catch almost all players mistakes - and if You see my logs, i don't catch that, only few situations you can see - and if player asked me, i returned their element.
This is only my decision. I never advertised it. But as you remember, we have small conversation on Warriors Guild forum. So i decided to create this blockade - as we found, game rules don't deny modification of page view into client side. Its only my business what i see page on my computer - as i cannot demand from you to not use any scripts. This only depend on player conscience - i know game rules, and i don't want to break them.
In my opinion Ektoras is blocked incorrectly. There no game rules denied this transaction. Anyone can bought them. Yes, there are suspicion that this items has been put especially on market to him. I cannot deny or confirm this hypothesis. It's impossible from my side - i don't have access to server logs.
My bought? It's a "quirk of fate" - ANYONE can bought that.
IF game creators think, that this is a crime, they can block that. There are no block on setting lowest item value.
So - this is allowed. Player can sell their inventory - all for 1 gold. If i put all my 10 items on market with price of 5 gold - and they be bought by different 10 players - that mean this is a multi? They are connected? If i sell my item by mistake, i dont ask player to get them back - he bought it, i know what i do. Before you put item on market, you see warning: "Are you sure? The lot cannot be cancelled!" - so if you ignore it, this is only Your fault. And not a player what bought it. This is only my decision what i do with my items. Otherwise - block this transaction, block presents, gifts - and all be clear.
I repeat again: i bought it because:
- game rules allow that
- game mechanics allow that
- anyone can bought them
- KingWarX is not my multi (they not my friend too - and if they be my friend, game rules also not deny them) | I agree 100% with Modi. The above quote also implies the Ektoras action was legal. The player that Ektoras was buying from, gave away other items and gold to different players at the same time. Ektoras was just (un)lucky to get most of it.
I didn't say it was legal and I did not mean to imply it was. I contacted Megacity about his 2 gold crossbow purchase and told him it was illegal as far as Jurists were concerned last year. He answered me that he would take a penalty just to clear up this hazy area for the rest of the players and get a clarification from Arctic. We never did get that clarification.
From Grunge's post #10, it looks like there were other factors involved in the blocking. | Isn't this funny? When the cat is not at home, the mice are dancing on the table debating what is legal (or not)...
This thread is totally devoid of any sense, in so far as the issue has already been reported where it had to be. I personally question the wisdom of public slandering and useless debating weather it is a legal thing or not -- it's not up to any of us to decide, and our opinions are worth....a big 0! | for LITWIN:
Just to make it clear, theres only a small number of scripts allowed by administration, all other are illegal. :P
my 2 cents :P | #2 Bartek009
Don't compare me to Ektoras. (i don't have anything to him - this is a strange person to me)
This is not similiar situation. Blocking of Ektoras - this is stupid? I cannot say. You too - we don't have access to server data, we cannot say anything about this is a collaboration between this 2 players, we cannot say that he logged from one ip, we cannot say anything. We only can talk about them. Any taking of decision about this (about blocking) is inappropriate.
If i can say anything about only his logs (in one page, i dont analyze their log history) - they have don't do anything illegal.
Game rules allowing that. Game mechanics allowed that - etc.
#5 STBs
"Ektoras bought the items and immediately asked Arctic (...) Ektoras asked him if he could keep them or if he should send them to Empire (...)"
There are not in game rules that buying of any items is illegal. As we can discuss about transfer items between two players via market by put them in low price and bought by other - several similar transactions - we can detect them and think that this can be illegal. I bought one item.
07-31-10 09:55: Acquired elements: "Fern flower"(s) for 10 gold from KingwarX as lot #1693897.
But i think, ZenoMX wants to buy them, but i been first. And this is their revenge. I dont see that he posted anything about that. Why ?:
07-31-10 09:55: Sold Skeletons: 500 pcs. for 500 gold to Macsek91 as lot #1693894. Commission: 5
07-31-10 09:55: Sold Skeletons: 500 pcs. for 500 gold to Macsek91 as lot #1693899. Commission: 5
500 / 1 = 1
05-31-10 06:04: Acquired elements: "Fern flower"(s) for 25000 gold from nobodiez as lot #1551732
Normal price is 16k? So that is also illegal, yea?
05-30-10 06:21: Acquired elements: "Fern flower"(s) for 25000 gold from Undead410531 as lot #1547038
And this too!
They are posted on market with too higher value that averange. And noone told, that this is illegal.
If something working in one direction, also must work in other. | To #10 Grunge
Yes, I agree to almost everything you say. Megacity, and probably lots of other players, should be blocked or punished for similar crimes. I only want some logic in the punishments. Not this randomness.
In fact I wouldn;t be surprised if Ektoras was discovered because the admins (or their assistants) were filtering the Transfer Logs for Thief Guild Invitations in particular.
This was not the case. Ektoras sent an IGM to Lexa asking advice about the transactions.
Further investigation reveals that 2 TGIs owned by Ektoras seem to have been later sold by Ektoras to Rex_Santanas
Yes, Ektoras did the stupid mistake of putting them at the market when he intended to sell some other items. A stupid misklick. One was returned after lots of IGMs back and forth. I was also involved in the attempts to have Rex_Santanas return them both.
...and the *possible* involvement of a Multi-Character.
I am a friend of Ektoras and know he does not have any illegal multi characters. I also know that this fact is easily verifiable for an admin with access to IP-numbers. Multi char is not a part of the description of the crime so I think we can disregard that possibility. | Grunge, please check transfer logs properly.
06-11-10 12:51: Player was imposed a penalty of 30000 gold. // 10-03-09 07:50: Acquired item: "Thief crossbow" [60/60] for 1 gold from stream_of_blood as lot #900879
A penalty was imposed.
https://www.lordswm.com/pl_transfers.php?id=4527693&page=8 |
1|2Back to topics list
|
