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| Author | Question about Estate Storage |
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3.32. Storing other players' artifacts in one's Estates is forbidden.
I am the Leader of #153 League of Shadows and I purcashed an estate with 100% of my own personal funds a while ago...and I keep some of my arts there, obviously. I did not use any #153 clan funds to purchase the estate because it is truely impossible for a "clan" to own one...as only the buyer+spouse can stay there for free all the time--not everyone. This was my decision as leader at the time.
My question however was that my clan has some Arts that I keep in my personal inventory because once I read this rule I figured I could not keep LoS arts in there.
Am I correct, or can the leader of a MC place Clan arts in their own personal Estates? My inventory is pretty full...and I'd rather have some free space if possible but I do not wish to violate any rules.
Thanks,
LS | I would guess not.
Probably just safer to store some of your other arts there. it wont make any difference to your total capacity (inv + estate) and might save some problems at a later date. | Didn't I read somewhere that all properties of a clan technically belong to the clan's leader? If so, then you can store them in your own estate.
Of course, if you use the clan's properties for personal gains, then you might face a revolt, but that's a different issue. | I heard all monies collected WITHOUT a specific purpose belong to leader...but all monies collected FOR a specific purpose belong to clan.
All of the clan donations I have received in the form of arts are FOR the clan, so they have a purpose. So can I stick them in MY estate is the question.
Also can a clan really buy an estate? In my opinion my answer is no as stated above, but that isn't what I'm asking :) I think that subject is entirely another one that can be discussed if you like but will be full of controversy ^ | https://www.lordswm.com/house_info.php?id=846
he has them inside his estate
Try reporting him and depending on the outcome you know if it is legal or illegal ^^
and the other clan, A&D, it has bought an estate with clan funds (and also the 6 tactician items inside it). I think that is legal (but then in case of leaderswitch you also have to give the estate to the new leader) and the money you get from the estate will have to go back into clan treasury. | | How do you see what artifacts are stored in someone else's estate? In Saddam's case, he has them in the Trophy Hall, along with the note that says that the set belongs to the clan. But other than than that, how can you tell? | at the bottom of the page, there is a button "facility log"
click it and you will get the "transferlog from the building"
(and then use ctrl+f with the name of the owner, so you skip all renting fees) | (and then use ctrl+f with the name of the owner, so you skip all renting fees)
And you have to that page by page? Seriously? You would go through that much trouble? | | depends on the estate, but most are not longer than ~5 pages, maybe 10 at most. | | Because i don't have estate, can anyone who have it and can spend some time for me, contact with me and we create a small tutorial about all estate functions? | My question however was that my clan has some Arts that I keep in my personal inventory because once I read this rule I figured I could not keep LoS arts in there.
Am I correct, or can the leader of a MC place Clan arts in their own personal Estates? My inventory is pretty full...and I'd rather have some free space if possible but I do not wish to violate any rules.
I had a similar question not long ago, though since I do not have an estate of my own I wanted to know if another clan member could store clan arts in their estate. I posed the question to Arctic and this was his reply (I hope he doesn't mind me quoting him here)
" As for now, there is no strict legal definition of clan arts. While it is so, it's better not to risk. If it's still a problem to find wide enough pockets, how about splitting those arts up between several trusted players?"
I do not know if the answer would have been different if I had my own estate, but I'm guessing not.
So I think your choices are doing as DiN says and filling your estate with other arts while stashing clan arts in your inventory, or you can do as Arctic suggested and split them among trusted members of your MC. | I do not want to report anyone without even knowing the legality of these things myself...as most people in violation I assume would be in ignorance and not on purpose. I was just hoping to get some information so that I am not in violation due to ignorance :)
Very good info, Laitha. Maybe an admin, or Mod that deals with Admins, can give some further clarification in regards to Clan purchasing arts and stashing them in Estates...or clan money being used to purchase estates since a few have raised that topic, etc. | i must admit that asking in q&h is a very good idea... In the time of rush of using clan fund for clan arts and estates, i warned many players about the danger of this "unclear" situation! So suggested the same as you did and in my point of view you did good like laitha did! But without official rules it s hard to say exactly what to do! I think din had done the best answer to avoid problems in your case!
You are welcome limus! | A clan’s treasury can only belong to 2 possible entities – the clan or the leader.
- If it belongs to the leader, then he can use the clan funds to buy anything he deems beneficial for the clan, and whatever he buys would belong to the leader.
- If it belongs to the clan, then he (with the consent of the clan members) can use the clan funds to buy anything they deem beneficial for the clan, and whatever he buys would belong to the clan.
So what exactly is the question?
I did not use any #153 clan funds to purchase the estate because it is truely impossible for a "clan" to own one...as only the buyer+spouse can stay there for free all the time--not everyone.
I know there are 1-2 clans who had used clan funds to buy/bid for a TGI. If we follow the same reasoning, then surely it’s also impossible for a ‘clan’ to own a TGI, since only one possible member can benefit from it, and not everyone.
And if the reason for the purchase of TGIs is to resell and make a profit for the clan, then surely buying an estate can be for the same purpose.
And you are actually incorrect to say an estate only benefits the buyer+spouse. The estate owner/clan leader can actually assign rooms to up to 5 members per day for free. So, an estate can be even more beneficial for its members than arts, TGI etc. | @Hallion
If an estate is ALWAYS closed to the public...then theoretically it can be beneficial to up to 5 additional members...however ONLY the Owner (Buyer) and Spouse can ALWAYS benefit from it. Therefore there is already a level of unfairness in this endeavour.
Using TGIs in the past was smart because it allowed EVERYONE in a clan to rent them inexpensively and to become thieves (ie everyone can benefit that wants to participate). The TGIs were later sold and money kept in treasury after TGIs were no longer leaseable. However are ALL clan estates meant to be used as investments that are currently for sale? They are hardly the same thing...especially when all TGI profits for clan TGIs presumably went to the clan treasury, etc.
Remember once you lease an estate the effects last up to 7 days. Once you become a thief...you are a member for life.
Anyway back to the issue in question is about storing Clan arts in Personal Estates, or Clan estates, if there is legally such a thing...as it seems definitions of all issues pertaining to this one are currently in conflict based on the replies.
Cheers,
LS | @15
Forgive me, but I really don't see your logic. It seems to be 'lob-sided'.
Everyone? When TGIs were available for lease, it takes on average 1 month for the renter to reach TG2 and return the TGI. So at best, only 12 members of a clan can 'benefit' from it.
Also, members who are already in the TG won't benefit at all, not one bit. So how can it be 'everyone'?
An estate, on the other hand, can benefit everyone and in best case scenario, can benefit 260 members. That's more everyone[everyone than a TGI can ever hope to achieve.
And if the intenetion was just leasing to members, why were 1-2 MC leaders using clan funds to try and buy a TGI during the recent auction, since leasing of TGIs is no longer allowed?
However are ALL clan estates meant to be used as investments that are currently for sale? They are hardly the same thing...especially when all TGI profits for clan TGIs presumably went to the clan treasury, etc.
Unless there's proof that a clan leader kept the gold he got from the sale of an estate/art/TGI, then it's just pure speculating on your part, don't you think? What good does speculating do to anybody?
Lastly, may I add that in .ru, winning a battle now means INSTANT RECOVERY of your troops, so how is that going to really benefit the buyer/leader of an estate eventually? :)
One clan leader may find investing in TGI to be more benficial, while another may think rare arts is, while yet another may think an estate is. Why say one is better than another just because you may have bought TGIs in the past for your clan?
In the end, it comes back to what I said earlier -
- If the treasury belongs to the clan, then the leader (with the consent of the clan members) can use the clan funds to buy anything they deem beneficial for the clan, and whatever he buys would belong to the clan.
- - If it belongs to the leader, then he can use the clan funds to buy anything he deems beneficial for the clan, and whatever he buys would belong to the leader, and none of the above would matter.
Unless clear rules are announced by the admins so everyone in this server knows what can do, and what can't, then it's no point trying to imply something just to try to get others in trouble, intentionallly or not. And maybe yourself too, since you already placed 'clan arts' in your personal estate many times. :D
I have seen some of Arctic's announcements and when a new rule is to be introduced, he would say so and say somethig like, "From xx/xx/2011, xxx is forbidden." This way, players have time to prepare and do what is necessary so they don't break the rules. This is how a good game should be run.
It's a shame that when we want to clarify some rules, no one bothers to tell us, and some were penalized as a result even though they had tried their best to clarify the rules. One reason why this server sees less and less people everyday.. | @16
A month for TG level 2? Hmm I could have sworn it was taking more like 2 weeks...a month MAX. Also it is like a virus...once a thief reached level 2 the TGI was passed on to the next person (back then clans were not 200 members large, more like 20-30 on average I'd say) and then eventually those thieves would hit TG4 and lease one to their mates...so that "one" TGI gives birth to 2. There wasn't a single person around back in those days that wasn't a thief unless they wanted to NOT be one. It was just "that easy."
Joining the TG is a lifelong benefit. It doesn't vanish. I don't see how you can question the validity of this claim...
If you are talking about an MC buying a TGI for purpose of leasing then it is foolhardy...since you cannot lease them :) However a clan buying Estates, TGIs, etc with purpose of RESELLING THEM FOR A PROFIT...well that is another story.
You aren't supposed to compare .ru to .com lol. It is like two different worlds. Who knows when that "Feature" will come here--if ever. Anyway estates are always most valuable (even here) when you LOSE a battle.
I said I placed clan arts in my estate until I read that rule concerning arts ^ Hence why I am asking for official clarification of the rules regarding this matter. Eventually an admin will see this and the rules will be rewritten...this would not be the first time I find a big hole and a new rule is written as a result of my concern/action. | | ok message understood and i ve copy this link to clear this point when our admin assistant will be back... But while i do not want flame and this topic is becoming one so i lock it now! | | closed by Lord Patrickou (2011-12-17 01:11:06) |
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