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| Author | classic vs BW wizard |
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Another classic wiz from the tourney
lost 2 I think - one to a tamer DE, the other when using a chaos build rather than might | | It means that tamer is strongest faction?? | red demon with last breath.
Chaos deamons have hard time killing Loadstone golems, I have went against Wizard a few times with Chaos + hellsfire demon and i had my whole army alive once and he just had his golems alive and i still couldnt kill him cause none of my magic works on him. it is really one thing a chaos hellsfire demon cannot kill. | I wouldn't bother with red demon chaos build with last breath and hellfire etc till you're a high level, around 17+
I did want to try classic wizard in CG but figure it takes too much skill and thought. :P | | Nah all you have to do is follow some pro Wizards and see their mini arts and set them accordingly... | You're talking to RR.. so the answer is Darkness Demon?
Nothing a potion of skill can't fix. With his experience and a build with NO weakness, it's guaranteed gold! | for Slust:
no, might classic wiz need fsl very much, it is a bit like necro, with fsl advantage it has no weakness but if without fsl advantage it is rubbish. | for Slust:
one fsl gap is not a big problem in mixed battle, but in duel it is impossible to win under one fsl gap, unless it is a very favor match, or opponent ill-played. | for RevolutionRebel:
tamer DE.
Lizard chargers can make a quick work of holy wizard. The defense guarantees that lizard won't die easily and if they get morale on 1st turn, i dare say its a certain loss for wizard. | for virtual_vitrea:
at lv 17, those genies will have about 80a 80d 8spd and 15+ initiative, plus a chastise(+9a) and rapid later. one hit of those 90a genie can easily kill more than half lizards, plus those 100+ atk titans and 9spd gargs.
but yes, summon mechanic works excellent against this wiz, poison is a great threat to those high def units. | | How will genies have 90 attack? I don't know what build lets you have 80-80 on genies prebuff but if that is the case, lizard chargers will have equally high defense, if not more. | for virtual_vitrea:
mini artifacts gives +10a +10d, erudition gives hero extra attributes. | for RevolutionRebel:
You forget abilities like mana drain, or a combination of child of light, free destruction spells to pierce your massive defense and units with 25 ini, 8 speed and 3 morale to run after in case you get lucky enough to kill most of the ennemy.
As for holy this is underwhelming because as you rightly noted, wizard has free chastise, so spending 50 to 60 talent points and at least 8 stat points (4SP/KN, bare minimum and makes you very weak to above mentionned mana drain, most tend to spend 10 to 12 stats) to replace that +9 ATK chast by +12 ATK and +12 DEF means that holy becomes better than might AFTER 2 hero turns only, and by then only by 6 stats at best... If you ignore the benefits of spending 50/60 talent points elsewhere of course (which can grant even more stats from erudition as you can't get expert erudition and holy even at level 17) and the fact that in two hero turns you can already have lost a battle.
After that the only real bonus you get is rapid which is certainly nice but comes late, and evasion which can range from useless (shadow barb, DD, both dark elves, classic knight,...) to god send (fury, charmer,...) but in the later case frankly I'd rather be might and rush and kill range than just sit and be killed, knocked, blinded by charmers.
There is also bless but damage range of classic makes it only good on giants/gargoyles.
So why being holy when might is outright better? | for Slust:
why holy is overpowered now:
1. rapid covers delay make it block all dark casters.
2. protect from fire blocked dof.
3. dispell blocked pristine unicorn, cheating blind, and those max temptress build.
why wiz+holy is invincible:
4. wiz itself blocked magic de, which is one of the worst enemy of holy build.
5. high a&d from mini artifacts blocked all first turn striking enemies, which is another weakness of holy build. | 3. dispell blocked pristine unicorn, cheating blind, and those max temptress build.
Dispel also remove all buffs. How is that helping, besides removing all the bonus of the build at the cost of the most expensive spell?
1. rapid covers delay make it block all dark casters.
Dark is stronger because "support" builds work best when they increase survivability.
Now, look at dark: delay, weakness, curse, confusion all increase survivability.
Holy: stone and evasion increase survivability, the others make units stronger (kill more).
So dark can use 4 spells to cripple the ennemy, it leaves you more time to cast and cripple even more. Once the ennemy is fully debuffed, than goes the disrupt to increase your damage output, and there is NO counter to it, and with delay each unit moves in beetween 2 to 3 disrupts (-12 to -16 DEF). You can also effectively remove one stack from the play with blind.
Holy on the other hand is a mixed bad of increased survavibility and increased damage output which is NOT suited for duels. It's just better to delay to have more time to cripple AND move more than the ennemy than rapid that only let's you move faster.
2. protect from fire blocked dof.
Come on... If picking that one one has to ignore another mass spell, so this means losing rapid/chastise or bless/dispersion. If you don't pick bless/dispersion it just removes your previous point about dispersion:
3. dispell blocked pristine unicorn, cheating blind, and those max temptress build.
Besides only one build use dof, that's a waste of 10 talent points.
4. wiz itself blocked magic de, which is one of the worst enemy of holy build.
I commonly face magic DE. Actually I face more magic classic DE than might DE by now. For destruction wiz I can barely relate to the last I've seen.
I'm not sure what else blocks it, BW with golems? Well, even rarer than classic destruction, I only met some in the beginings of BW before dof became the norm.
BW with dof can lose too because sphynx and giants can be down in 1 spell and if not setup correctly, leaving the DE use lizard charge on a stack means I'll lose in the end. Also gremlins+lore down in a spell. Genies can't hit 1st turn because of shrews. Pretty much down to genies to kill all of the DE and peak strenght pretty much fits (dof needs 1 turn to start rolling and sphynx are slow until they can onset, no matter what you do they don't have a chance to hit).
As for classic holy, it can certainly lose, garg take a while to kill but lack the damage output to kill ladons/minos in time.
5. high a&d from mini artifacts blocked all first turn striking enemies, which is another weakness of holy build.
That's a biased point of view. Yes, classic has mini arts but BW has 40 genies with better stats (10% extra HP) VS 30 for classic. BW sphynx are clearly superior because I can always use one stack to trigger a weak retal (or no retal) while doing multiple times the damage of the classic sphynx, good placement of sphynx ensure that hitting them also triggers multiple retal hits and again BW has more.
Also lower HP means extra weakness to triggering abilities (your so-called "cheating blind", but also cheating fear attack of your horses,...), spells or similar abilities (horse damaging aura), longer blind from hero spell,...
In essence you did not address my point about mana drain so I'll just assume you want an easy gold from facing more classic holy next tournament. | The thing with classic wiz is that with mini arts and erudition they have raw stats in excess of any other faction. This means that any faction like elves which rely on offence damage multipliers,luck and favoured enemy to get large damage dealt will do less base damage to get increased. Consequently the first strike will be less effective, meaning that the return damage will be more significant (Extra so given the larger stats that a wiz has). One hitting a classic wiz stack is pretty much only possible with lizards and luck. Further through the battle the stat gap will increase as the various holy abilities land. Certainly defensively evasion will effectively render any ranged units a waste, they will get one volley in and then be mostly redundant (wardens wont even get that far)
For any enemy with a low number of total hit points or low defence, they will likely just get ground down. Those that are defensive with a way of avoiding high defence (tamer DE) will fare better. I can imagine magic DE is a problem, until you use antimagic on key stacks to exagerate the natural magic defence (like genies and gargoyles or golems) and they will struggle as well.
Pure might wizard while will do better against rush armies, will do worse against the aforementioned. | Ultimately then it is a balance. I think remembering a point RR has made before with duel builds, it is not about whether it beats one army better than another, but rather that it has a good chance against all armies you will face.
I think this is the point, a pure might classic wiz is certainly better placed against rush armies when things land before the holy has come into effect. However if a holy classic also wins this bout, then the fact that the might classic did it easier doesn;t matter. If however a might classic wiz has no chance against a certain enemy, but a holy classic does, then this on average against all opponents may do better.
I speak on theory, I have not tried holy classic wix other than in CG where id did well. However, I am down on FL for it to be effective. I will try and remember this and try it out when the success or failure of the build will be the variable rather than my lower FL. | I can imagine magic DE is a problem, until you use antimagic on key stacks to exagerate the natural magic defence (like genies and gargoyles or golems) and they will struggle as well.
The thing with classic wiz is that with mini arts and erudition they have raw stats in excess of any other faction. This means that any faction like elves which rely on offence damage multipliers,luck and favoured enemy to get large damage dealt will do less base damage to get increased. Consequently the first strike will be less effective, meaning that the return damage will be more significant (Extra so given the larger stats that a wiz has). One hitting a classic wiz stack is pretty much only possible with lizards and luck.
Might classic has the choice to rush and kill or step back and self buff (lores, genies, wait for onset), classic holy has not. Also picking holy means that lores switch to support role because they'll in ATK and so can't hit hard first turn to win the range duel of first turn. But they are redundant as holy support because hero can already chast and do it better. Punch is of use but weak, range attack barely stronger than punch.
Most factions are played as rushers (of all barbs, the most common is fury for exemple).
Ultimately then it is a balance. I think remembering a point RR has made before with duel builds, it is not about whether it beats one army better than another, but rather that it has a good chance against all armies you will face.
It's not like he invented that. Back to .com server I used to play classic holy with dumping some points into attack, so that I could chose to rush and kill (deadly against holy) or stay back and buff, but that was before they added DD and mana drain, and seduction (yes it can be casted out but all you have to do it wait the right moment to seduce and control a stack 0.1 turn to get a full turn out of it), charmers with child of light and sharpshooters that killed golems with evasion and knocked it so hard it couldn't even move, dark barb that can 1 hit any stack and debuff down to 0 DEF. Also without a good deal of defense it's instant loss to DE shrews and lizards.
The fact that he changed his point from "classic holy has NO weakness" to "holy is stronger than dark" says a lot anyway. | I can imagine magic DE is a problem, until you use antimagic on key stacks to exagerate the natural magic defence (like genies and gargoyles or golems) and they will struggle as well.
I forgot to address this point, so here is how anti-magic works: when you are down to 2 giants, you can cast anti-magic on it for 100% efficiency. This has the nice side-effect of removing all buffs and because it is affected by magic pierce it means that your magic DE will need 2 spells instead of just 1 to kill your giants. Alternatively it can just kill your 2 giants in melee. If you cast it on gargoyles, the effect is lower than 10%. Of course you will want to start with rapid/chastise so by the time it comes to anti-magic the DE will have cast twice and you won't have much left. | Ok, so I am writing this as I genuinely want to work out which is the best build for classic wiz through some decent debate and thought, not because I actually have any particularly firm view as to which is best. Ultimately I may want to use a classic wiz build so this is me just planning ahead (and procrastinating from work)
My basic thought is, that whatever you do with a classic might wizard only erudition directly adds instantly to the "might". This takes 27 talent points leaving all others that require some form of magic to be of any use. What is then in debate is which of these extras to tap into and to what extent is it worth it to use them by investing in knowledge and spell power at the expense of raw stats.
Within this firstly what is "best" will change with levels as more talent points become available. Given the main protagonists within this discussion are level 16 and 17 that will be my focus.
At level 16 one has 65 talent points
As far as maxing out stats, that needs 27 for erudition giving +8 stat points
leaving 38 to pay with - this is 3 items from the holy schools, or 3 from nature and 2 from sorcery.
In practice however 3 from the holy school is too much of a compromise - instead you probably would have to sacrifice some raw stats to get sufficient holy skills. Having 2 erudition gives +5 stats, but allows 4 from the holy tree. Or 1 erudition gives +4 stats and 5 from the holy tree - this would be the optimal holy option I think.
Comparing these if one goes for nature might vs holy might with 1 erudition
Nature might has +8 raw stats, sacrificing perhaps say 2 extra for sufficient mana
Whereas the holy has +4 stats, and sacrificing perhaps 3 knowledge and 4 spell power.
This would leave the holy down 9 stats in total at the start of the battle. However, it is not as clear cut as this, both can get +1 knowledge and spell power from the firebenders robe over the flame plate, at the expence of the flame plates melee resistance, similarly if you decided to go for a modest amount of lores for boost, there is no need for a bow, consequently choosing a firebenders robe over a dragonwing cloak (or cloak of sun) gives the extra stats one would need to make both builds work (though the spell power would not be needed for the nature build). Similar trade offs are possible with boots and helmet.
Consequently a holy build would only really end up down in raw stats from those lost in erudition (4 in this case), though would lose out on a melee resistance and ranged resistance from arts in doing so.
In comparison for a level 17, and 70 talent points, they can have full erudition and 4 holy magic tree options - thus the stat gain from erudition is the same, the only loss is then as before the artifact bonuses for melee and ranged defence.
I would therefore not expect a holy to suffer so appreciably in the first turn of attack before the possibility of casting balances out the trade off of stats/abilities.
In balance a phantoms can also hit very hard and make a big difference, though timing is tricky and inconsistent, if you move just before the opposite hero, phantoms can easily be lost straight away.
Based on this to me it feels like holy is perhaps worth the tradeoff, as is probably more reliable than the nature alternative. I am more than happy to try it out if anyone fancies a couple of duels. Once with each build and see which ones work out best. If one build wins, where the other loses, then we may have some more reliable conclusions to settle the debate! |
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