| Author | State of the meta |
|---|
for RevolutionRebel
i see, did not know hellfire was pure damage ;) I thought it used to be fire elemental then was changed to physical. |
As much as I like the idea of an unforgetable build with all points into attack and dying after any mistake, most factions can not play this because eventually you end up facing elves and high ini + 8 speed + ridiculous damage output means you die before you move. I remember when charmer was instroduced and there was no cold ring and that's what happened to me, but now classic does that too with tactics.
Of course there are not just elves, but also classic DE to an extent (depends how good your range is and if you have a counter to lizards) and any faction that has really strong range, typically fury. Even dwarves can be like that, just wasting runes with agility and killing you without you get an option to do much with your low defense.
The only counter to this is to go defense (at least partially), and for several factions I would say that it's the only way to enjoy PvP in what I really feel is the bad concept of "die before you move" where victory is decided at setup. |
Yes, I'm seeing a lot of Chaos Demons after the change from Fire to Physical.
It actually does a lot of damage, and it's cool to see them overwhelm everybody.
Thing is, as no Build is best against everything, it has weaknesses.
They run out of mana fast, and they die super fast (Even with Last Breath).
Maybe it'd be cool in a team with a Faction that is also high priority to kill fast otherwise just rocks aswell, like CE, Tribe, or BW (And not Knight or UN).
The concept of "True damage", or anything that is close to it like magic, poison, or armor ignore, is getting more and more important against all the defence builds. |
for Ipsen:
the damage output of chaos demon is not bad at high level, and the new hellfire works excellent against loadstone golem/black dragon/gargs which is tough for traditional casters. but the main problem is, they are too fragile. demon have the least total hp count(even less than tribal who has tribal spirit) among all factions and classes and nearly least average defense(only better than barbarian), gating ability can increase your damage output but can not help you survive.
casters like wiz and magic de can be very endurable if you wear two ring of cold, but for chaos demon defense can not help due to the incredible low hp. last stand can ensure you not die in one turn, but never able to last long like magic de or wiz do. all these make chaos demon full of contradiction, they can not win many, but they are always an opponent full of uncertain. |
| you are right RR. Even if a demon triggers a lot of hellfire damage, it feels like they are extremely squishy and die shortly after all the gates make their use (in most games that is after the gated pit demons appear). |
last stand can ensure you not die in one turn, but never able to last long
Expert Chaos + Last Breath = 66 talent points (available at CL16). And without any Sorcery branch talents. Add Expert Sorcery, and it's 90 points (CL21); if you want to add a mana cost reduction talent to that (like Concealed Knowledge) or even the central talent (Hellfire), you'll have to be CL23.
As with some other factions, talent tree for demon could use a revamp in the caster's branches (basically, talents are too expensive).
There's more to balancing than just manage numbers and stats, maybe now that the game is going HTLM5, talent trees can get some tweaking too. |
for Lord Syrian:
expert chaos is not necessary, but searing fire is must. searing fire+last stand+hellfire requires lv18 at least, and it is enough.
no erudition is poor for a caster. |
expert chaos is not necessary, but searing fire is must. searing fire+last stand+hellfire requires lv18 at least, and it is enough.
no erudition is poor for a caster.
Yes, but that's the Hellfire build (I played that in my last 2 tourny battles and won both, it's solid). I was talking about the Chaoser build (hero spells, not troop dmg), and any chaoser is poor without Sorcery talents (which each cost 8 for demon) |
I was talking about the Chaoser build (hero spells, not troop dmg), and any chaoser is poor without Sorcery talents (which each cost 8 for demon)
I don't think demon can ever hope to outplay either wizard or dark elf as pure chaos without making use of hellfire. And frankly they wouldn't want to as that would make gating useless. |
| Exactly my point, vv. It just doesn't pay off. The branches are there for filler-up. |
I have seen lower lvl hellfires as well which works quite succesfull.
Not saying its the strongest build, but very viable ;) |
I have seen lower lvl hellfires as well which works quite succesfull.
Not saying its the strongest build, but very viable ;)
yeah at those levels its pretty good because they are not relatively very squishy or that everyone is squishy :) |
| most common tactic is 1 massive stack of fiends, which is hard to kill just like zombies ;) |
| on another note , has anyone seen a defensive red demon ?? |
| Yes, I played it a couple times, worked okay. |
what recruitments , like max cerebri or max fiends ??
what talents ??
Replays ?? |
I took defensive talents + avoidance and then offensive talents.
Max horses, dogs, some spawns, pits devils. Took pretty much everything except mistress and incendiaries. |
| I think inc's are only good for hellfire demons, since u need the damage on them and they give survivabillity |
| defence is super important for red demon. At lvl 16+ playing full offence with low defence is kamikaze :P. When i play red demon i play with advanced defence, barrier, the +4 def talent, advanced offence, cold blade and fury. Defence > luck. |
| So u pull all the points in defense too or just the talents?? |
