| Author | Why do defense build usually work better than attack build in CG battles? |
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Hi,
I am curious about why defense-oriented build often win against attack-oriented build in CG battles. To provide some examples, take a look at this battle: https://www.lordswm.com/war.php?warid=1600663336
Here, the elf's troops can deal much less damage compared to the tribal's troops. This confuses me since in hunting or in survival battles, elves deal much more damage than most of the factions.
Both heroes have comparable stats and similar level of faction resistance. Moreover, their sums of attack and defense are also equal.
Is there some intuition on this phenomenon? Can someone explain to me? |
for koalabear:
tribal faction passive, once they have spirit they reduce like 74% of incoming damage so they just abuse passive+defence to out grind other factions. hit them hard before they build spirit to beat them. but once you get higher up it becomes a rock paper scissors game in essence. defence beats attack 90+% of time, mages beat defence 100% of time, and attackers beat mages 90+% of time. |
also, stacking % damage reductions is quite OP on higher levels.
tribals have 74% dr from racial passive and spirit. another 30% from expert defence, they usually have anti 13 so another 39% of damage reduced, another 24% melle damage reduction from sun armors.
you take all of these into account and for every 100 damage they would take they only recieve 8.43 damage. |
for slayerofall:
Nerd |
@sage Jiraya lol
But slayer you can also go armour penetration, bonus damage etc? so that should change the dynamics a bit? |
Everything has its pros and counters. A defensive build works well against factions with high attack but low defense, since the enemy can barely deal any damage. On the other hand, a defensive setup is usually weak against mage-type factions.
Tribal, on the other hand, has the advantage of building up spirits, but in theory, a mage shouldn’t lose to them, unless the enemy focuses on the wrong units and prioritizes poorly.
And yes, talents are also really important in the above text from Slayer ^^ |
for ANTI-hacker:
% damage reductions are still mathematically better.
As an example compare Expert Offense vs Expert Defense.
With Expert Offense on the attacker, you deal 130% melee damage.
With Expert Defense on the target, it receives 0.7 * 1.3 = 91% of the damage.
They do not nullify each other simply because of how percentages work.
Ignore def % is great to have yes. This is one reason classic dwarf can hope to win against chaos enemies without any offense talent branch. But you'd have to ignore a some threshold % of def (not sure how to work out the math here, it depends on target def and attacker's attack difference) for it to overcome any benefit of target having expert def. |
@santremus
I understand this logic:
With Expert Offense on the attacker, you deal 130% melee damage.
With Expert Defense on the target, it receives 0.7 * 1.3 = 91% of the damage.
But again like you said the 91% damage at actual is subjected to various calculations.
In theory yes a defensive build can work against an offensive build 90% times, but some factions with troops that have high attack or ignore defense etc can also play a major turning factor. |
for ANTI-hacker:
its usually not enough. if you look at boars they dont do enough damage and they get delayed and focused down first. if you thinking about behemoths then tribals have a unique combination of delay 30% and fear shout to never give them a turn. |
Another unmentioned fact is that playing a defensive build is also much easier from a strategic point of view.
You don't have to take the initiative, you don't have to position your units as carefully, mistakes are much more forgiving. You can basically just run and smash but only 1 scratch at a time.
Boring to play, boring to play against. |
I might as well add that the number of attack stats given by offensive arts is usually less than the number of defense stats given by defensive arts in the same slot.
In return, offensive arts give initiative that allow players to attack first. |
