| Author | Rapid vs. Delay formula error |
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| [Post deleted by moderator Kotrin // Typo, corrected below:] |
Sorry, but I pressed Ctrl + Enter by accident.
Continue from previous post:
9 * (100% + 40%) * (100% - 30%) = 9 * 140% * 70% = 9 * 98% = 8.82
This result is quite surprising(mathematically it is correct), because if I speeded up creature by +40% and enemy slowed it down by -30% one would expect that final initiative would be greater than original.
The correct form o the formula should be:
[Final initiative] = [initiative] * (100% + [Rapid effect] - [Delay effect]);
In this case with values from example above we get:
9 * (100% + 40% - 30%) = 9 * 110% = 9.9
This result is much more natural than the first one.
Also all other formulas in new Overlay system for spells of Holy and Darkness schools of magic are of this second type:
[final value] = [original value] * ([positive effect] - [negative effect])
and NOT
[final value] = [original value] * [positive effect] * [negative effect] |
| i think you are wrong duncan, the formula and final effect for initiative is correct. |
[Final initiative] = [initiative] * (100% + [Rapid effect] - [Delay effect])
yes that works perfectly! Admins take note! |
Dark spells, resist by magic proof and magic immunity. Delay, mind-affecting spells are immune by some units, also they can be dispelled (holy magic).
While holy spells can only be resisted by magic immunity. (which ability is only possessed by very few units)
So this is just an incentive for practicer of dark spells IMO.
Straws has it! |
but this is a big problem for knights, we already have slow units, and an expert rapid can almost be cancelled out by basic dispel which for our guardians is a very annoying situation.
also dispel costs 10 mana, that is a lot to remove a spell which only costs 4 mana to cast. I think this game is really against knights. |
The formula is [Final initiative] = [initiative] * (100% + [Rapid effect]) * (100% - [Delay effect]) for a reason:
- all effects apply one AFTER the other ... so the order is important ... and when you launch a spell it acts on the CURRENT situation, not the NORMAL one
I understand it may seem weird, but it is like this: all bonus/malus are multiplicative in this game and not additive |
all effects apply one AFTER the other ... so the order is important ... and when you launch a spell it acts on the CURRENT situation, not the NORMAL one
not true, it don't matter what order the spells are cast delay will always beat rapid.
if rapid cast first then
8.7*1.4 = 12.2 then 12.2*0.7 = 8.5
if delay is cast first then
8.7*0.7 = 6.1 then 6.1*1.4 = 8.5
same result either way, simply changing the formula to the one above will make a much fairer result. |
The problem is that people don't understand percentage calculation, they don't understand why two 'equal' effects don't cancel out, but the catch is x% rapid and x% delay are not equal.
x% delay is always stronger than x% rapid, I'll give two simple examples.
1) 50%: 50% delay means you lose half of your turns, 50% rapid means you get 1 turn for every 2 turns, to compensate 50% delay you'd need 100% rapid.
2) 100%: 100% delay means your initiative drops to zero and you have no turns at all, 100% rapid just doubles your turns and no matter how strong your rapid is you can never compensate 100% delay. |
One thing though, from the Spell page: https://www.lordswm.com/help.php?section=31
It is written there +x% for rapid, -x% for delay, and not by x%. |
| Read this: https://www.lordswm.com/forum_messages.php?tid=1868152 (part 2, paragraph 3) |
It is written there +x% for rapid, -x% for delay, and not by x%.
The +x% means increase by x% and -x% means decrease by x%, if that was your point. |
| I sorta get what you're saying fusei, it's like attack and defence, 20 more attack doubles damage whilst 20 more defence only halfs it. It's easy to forget what exactly % means, but I still don't agree with the way it works :( |
| The way rapid and delay are combined is perfectly fine, the one thing you may argue about is why delay is stronger than rapid, but given their current strength combining them yields an expectable result. |
I'm talking bout this part, - [Delay effect]
So it would be - (-x%), but this is just picky. |
| It doesnt work fine. 30% delay shouldnt be stronger then 40% rapid. It is simply not fair. I can learn only advanced darkness magic and my delay is stronger then rapid from knight, who have to learn one more talent (expert holy magic). Curret formula is wrong and new formula works good. |
| Actually, it's not an "error" but rather a "suggestion" on how you think formulas should combine, so I'm moving this thread in a more appropriate place. |
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not true, it don't matter what order the spells are cast delay will always beat rapid.
yes you're right ... because they are both multiplicative ... it would be different if some bonus/malus are additive ...
what happens if you are knocked back 20%? Is this additive or multiplicative? If it is additive, then you can see that it matters wether your rapid/delay is cast before/after ... That's why I said that it matters the order |
#19 knockback is an instant effect, while delay is a duration spell.
This means that delay doesn't actually move you back, it just slows you down, while knockback litterally pushes you back X places from your current position.
They both work in the time field, but on different basis. |
