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Magic appears weak


AuthorMagic appears weak
Again it's a general discussion about the undeniable fact that the vast majority does not utilize a magic build and that wizards are only viable because of an arbitrary illogical bonus otherwise they'd totally blow in hunts and merc quest because of the reasons I listed. (Golems and Gremlins sucking like hell etc.)

And no, Wizards are not hard to play. They are stupidly easy in Hunts and Mercs sadly. I noticed that when I played DE for a while even thogh I did not have had Shrews it was tons harder and I am sure evne with Shrews Wizards have a total easy mode in comparison.

Because DEs and other factions don't have the bonus against neutrals with magic, making a magic build for any other faction then wizard only usable in PVPs.

Answer: This is exactly my point. Or was it the Devs intention to make magic useful for PvP only and even here only DE and Wizards are really viable for full magic builds.

dude if you say magic weak then change faction then..wizz have powerful hero of course weak troop..you assume that wizz have powerful hero and troop?LoL then the game become imba..i dont see any bad or WEAK on wizz now ..may be you DONT KNOW how to use it?if yes please dont whine here

Answer: What you do not get is that the strength the hero gains does not outweigh the strenghts he would gain if he would strenghten his troups With talents and attack power.
That's why they had to implement the stupid hunt bonus damage for Wizard or there would be NO faction being able to play Spellpower builds at all
There's a grand total of 3 races with access to Chaos magic: Wizards, Demons and Dark Elves.

Of the three both Demons and Dark Elves have troops that make having a might build very attractive... a large number of high damage, high attack troops, with a limited option for long term survival.

For both, it makes far more sense to focus on the troops you already have. If you start with something good, and make it better, it becomes outstanding.

This is basically what it boils down to for the only other chaos casters, your might option is already stronger than magic. While the magic option is certainly an option, it takes significantly more to bring the magic up to an acceptable level compared to using a might build.

yes,but have 'old' minis 10 atk 10 def +3 luck now minis they are weak
And now Umbrashiv think about it when you substract the hunt bonus from wizard faction skill level.
Would you still think that Wizards will continue playing magic builds especially after they get a good amount of Genies and Sphynx Guardians?

I really doubt it.

I see your point and I agree with it and it actually strengthens my argument. Magic is pretty weak for most factions and the reason why it's strong for wizard is the hunt bonus and the hunt bonus alone.
Without it few to none would play magic builds.
I can totally understand what you are trying to say.

But think of a real battle, when a stack of troops attacks, there are many factors you need to consider: damage, attack, defence, speed, init, moral, luck, shooting range, retal, hp, embattle to block enemies...

When you use damage spells, mainly there are only two factors: hp and damage.
So IMO too much damage spells would possibly make the battle boring.

Crowd control spells on the other hand, such as blind, are rather interesting, but are too powerful and very hard to balance among factions. It's good to have them but must be carefully tested.
try to switch at level 8-9-10 or higher to wizard.
You ll lose hundreds of battles and only gain a few victories.
And even when you have wizards faction level on 3 or 4 you still fail.
To be a decent wizard you need a high racial, so unless you started as a wizard as level 1, its almost impossible to become one.

I think thats the main reason why there are so few magic builds.

Compare it to the other factions, for knights and necromancers the racial skill is important too. But with knights racial 1; its not that hard to win battles, for example mercernary quests. As a wizard its plain impossible.
Agree and I am not suggesting simply buffing spell damage. That would easily change to balance into the opposite fast and I do not want that really. I actually enjoy watching might builds and they should remain strong in comparison. I just do not like that Wizards depend so much on the racial bonus so taht magic is strong. It should be strong on it's own. It's solid in PvP I agree with that, especially with Lorekeeper and Genies on the Battlefield.
More non damage spells would be welcome topo and might add some more strategy to the game.
As for balancing it, well there chould be a cheap dispel spell available to most factions. I do not think it's too much to ask to maybe invest 1-2 points in knowledge to place a few timely dispels. Barbarians have their magical resistance albeit it might be a bit weak now with the new spell penetration items.

It might be a good idea to let magical troops like Dark Witches, Lorekeeper etc. profit a bit from the hero's spellpower and knowledge too albeit absolutely not they way like attack power scales with troops. More like a 10 Hero Spellpower : 1 Troop Spellpower ratio or 5 Hero Spellpower : 1 Troop Spellpower

Alternatively might be a good idea to let knowledge affect troops mana a bit. Every 5 or 10 Knowledge gives additional 5 or 10 Mana. That would give them more staying power magic wise. Mabe both but it must be carefully scaled.

Sven91: That is a good point. Wizard with low faction level is a pain in the butt to play but a total breeze with high faction level in hunts and merc quests.
About other factions and their dependence on it cannot say much. I already imagigned that for Necs and Knights its also important but cannot say how much they depend on it compared to Wizards.-
magic doesn't appear weak
magic is weak
I switched to demon at level 8 and I switched to knight at level 9, and just before level 10 I switched back to demon because they have cerberi now.
And to be honest, it wasnt that hard.
Yes, I had less troops (knights racial skill: training, and demon: gating)
but my troops were not less powerful, I just had 10-15 units less.
But I saw several people switching to wizard at higher levels (for example shebali) and when I looked at her combat log...... I was like no way im going to do that, it was like 5-10 pages only filled with defeats.
That really sounds like it's absolutely no fun leveling Wizard faction at higher levels when you change from one faction to them.
i think it is the very same with necro
switching to necro, going for a might build and not having masses of skeleton archer really sucks
I agree with Shagan. The magic is to weak. Admins should think about chaos magic talents.

For me Wizard is offensive magic (Chaos) so I don't understand why Chaos talent is so expensive ->10 points (?) As our fundamental skill, it cost 10 points...I would change to 7 or 8 and thanks to it, I could start planing how to play with dominations (tempest or cold). Planing game with dominations (decrease ini or reducing armor) might be interesting and chalenging. Such a approach could chamge running away with gargs and casting one damage spell (depends on level). Besides Seething Anger also could be interesting with chastice from Lorekeepers and mini arts...maybe not perfect but still challenging.

For balance admins could increase up to 12 points in Nature Magic. Magic skill is (for me) only useful on hunts or MG when fighting against e.g. Golems or Unicorns etc
Magic is fine the way it is designed.

You should stop linking magic to the damage part of it only. Magic involves a lot of other things too.... For example a holy spell that buffs your defense is magic. Same is a raise dead spell, and same is lightning.

With correct usage magic is quite balanced in every aspect of the game.

At the moment wizards ( and DE to an extent with offense talent cost increase ) got the short end of the stick with last update. I believe the reason for that is two-fold. The first reason is that might wizard build before grand update was too powerful. At citadel levels you could win in PvP around 80% of the time if not more. That was obviously wrong. The changes made melee wizard a lot worse, however it is now cheaper to play ( you dont need 1-2 million gold for mini arts ). The second reason is the probable upcoming introduction of level 4 spells. Magic got buffed substantially in this update probably preparing the ground. Grand update obviously points to that:

-"Lightning" and "Ice clod" spell damage increased when "Chaos magic" talents chosen;" This buff to lightning is huge. You can't feel it at level 8 or 9 but you will at level 13 with full AP :-P
-DE and wizard sorcery talent costs decreased.
-Chaos magic talent cost for wizard and demon decreased.
-Barbarian racial magic proof decreased.
-Several new excellent spell items introduced ( Sorcerer Sandals - Sorcerer Cape - Ruby Quarterstaff )

All the above have buffed chaos magic a lot. And the buff will be bigger when the new spells come out

And regarding the faction change at higher levels .... there is a similar problem if you change from wizard to other faction trust me. It all depends on how much you push it with your previous faction on the field it is best at: If you ambush with DE with 3 x 40% weapons for few months and then try to ambush as knight for example with minimum or low ap you might need to lose 2-3k caravans before getting one win ( and no i am not exaggerating ). If you hunt as elf with full enchants also - do not expect to win many hunts with other faction if you change. And also if you killed with wizard or necro Angel Monster {10} you can probably forget about killing Angel Monster with other faction for the next few years to come.

On a final note, magic should not be something that everyone understands and knows how to use. On most fantasy games magic users are a small part of the total population and maybe the admins have something like that in mind when designing it.
IMHO the problem is that group battles are not played much, instead there are hunts, MG, TG ...
There is NO sane way to balance 5-6-7-8 different factions in PvP or guilds.
Instead groups/clanwars should be the most importatnt part of the game.
Even now mages are great in groups where they can deal damage with Fbs.
Imagine what a meteor shower can do, or how important a berserk/blind/teleport can be
to 1

1. See Top Hunters list (all factions)
2. See Blindfold Tours results (all levels)

Do you have any questions more...???
I'm quite happy being a wizard but talents wheel is just unfair.
DE have twice as many opportunities in talents wheel as wizards.
We wizards are forced to play magic build.

1: in HoMM you can play both magic and might build and that's reasonable - creating magical elemental units, making golems alive - this seems to be enough to be a wizard for me.
2: If we had all 4 branches of magic with reasonable prices for talents - I could understand it, but we have:
Chaos magic for 10 points :/
Nature magic for 8 points
Holly magic for 10 points :/

And Shagan is right - boost of magical demage in PvE doesn't make sense - its not balancing of gameplay, its pretending to be balancing the game...

I understand your wish to make magic more comparable to might builds without the arbritary damage bonus. The problem is as I pointed out in my earlier post that magic build would be too strong for pvp then.

Right now a wizzard with faction level 8 does 5 times normal damage in comabt vs neutral creatures and thus is approxamitely on par with might builds. I don't see any way how you can alter magic in a way, that hunts are still doable and pvp isn't ruined.

Right now pvp is balanced (more or less) and hunts for wizzard are fine thanks to bonus damage. Instead of removing this bonus I would make it available for all factions. Thus demon or de could use magic build aggainst neutral creatures.

BUT this leads of course to new problems e.g. Shrews with high ini and speed 8 can run away a lot better than gargs thus it wouldn't be balanced.

There isn't always a simple solution to all problems. Right now I deem it is as good as any plan I could come up with.
And what if they boost the damage of all destructive magic spells by eg 200%, and give 66% resistance to all destructive spells in PvP combats. Or maybe they just simply set a damage for PvP, and a damage for PvE.

To balancce shrews/gargs maybe:
-sorcery cost of wizzy decreased/De increased
- and/or wizzy could keep the ability of doing more damage to neutral creatures, but in a less effective way. Maybe: damage = base*(1,5+faction/3) or something like this

And I understand you, Shagan. The reason why I've chosen DE upon registering is that in HOMM5 DE was the best for casting. Empowered+Elemental Vision+Warlock's Luck was a deadly combo. I wanted blast spells... And now look at me. A might DE, with the hope of reaching lvl 10 soon, then change back to magic, and blast the world with fire....
So wizards complaining about their magics?

Let me tell you something about necro magic:

Nature magic Raise becomes redundant from level 9. It is better to have might built with vitality talent than trying to raise a puny amount of hp.

The mana cost for summon phantom is exorbitant and would be moronic if used in GBs because 3 factions can cast a CHEAP magic arrow and 2 faction has chaos-casting units. Meaning ur phantom costing 2 knowledge wont last more than 1 turn.

Darkness magic can not be enhanced by enchantments. Hence poison built at high level is weak. Too much HP to kill as number of units increases drastically at high levels. Cursing spells are still useful but too much magic resistance items (aka mithrils and cloaks) and talents and spells (soon) to make necro darkness magic deadly.

Nature magic can be enhanced by enchantment but who is going to use raise or summon phantom at high levels?
You just reached level 8.. And sadly you don't have enough for Enchanted gagoyles.... Have you actually played properly as a level 8 wizard before complaining??? Lightning surpasses Magic arrow when having high sp. Enchanted gargoyles have considerably more damage than normal gargs, more hp, initiative and speed are just awesome for survival... And do you know wizards OP at level 9? Triple mini, 120% more Genies, affording Basic Chaos+Adv sorcery....

Level 4 spells are not out yet... They would probably be availiable from lv 12 or 14 upwards. High level balancing would be solved then.
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