Forums-->Ideas and suggestions-->
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| Author | Restrict clan affiliation for all staff members |
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The difference is that have no problems at all with other people having different opinions from mine.
^^ correction | There are people in the world that would stand by what you said Slynky in loud support (it is not "outside of the realm of possibility"), as again, since I can't see your facial expressions, mannerisms, etc...you can only be taken seriously unless you ask not to be after trying to take the good out of what I said--and expect not to get a reply. Further, you need to stop being insecure with your posts: "ooh, he's talking about my sweet Kotrin, again."
I was talking about everyone that suffers from a particular "condition." Yes, Kotrin's condition...and that of another Mod that quit a long time ago...what was his name...Kush I think.
Was your military service in the Taliban, by chance? ;) | Actually, my military service included time fighting against the Taliban, as well as the first gulf war to liberate Kuwait, and the ousting of Noriega from Panama.
And I'm quite comfortable with my securities and insecurities... unless you're a spider, I happen to have a bit of a phobia about those. Otherwise, I'm pretty much good. And, I fully expected a reply to my post. This wouldn't be nearly as much fun if you didn't respond to my posts. It's not entertaining at all to debate with oneself, at least for more than a few moments.
Finally, if you look through some of my posts, you'll see that I was quite harsh with Kotrin and all the Mods myself. I do feel they made mistakes, many of them, and have readily and repeatedly stated as much. Honestly, I have no issue at all with you stating beefs about Kotrin, but I do have a beef with DiN who, I remain absolutely convinced, deliberately and with malice of intent provoked the actions he is now decrying. To me, that is hypocritical in the extreme and warrants whatever criticisms it may draw from me or others.
My actions are to decry what I see as hypocrisy, not to defend Kotrin. He is a big boy and can defend himself if he so chooses. Not that you would be able to see it, or have to believe me, but I chided Kotrin some time ago on our private forum about his actions in this situation early on... as did a few other WGW members. We're kinda rebellious like that... Kotrin will probably be glad to be rid of having to manage us :-) | This topic has become a flame war basically mirroring the topics Arctic and Kotrin respectively started in OGF and G&C. The majority of the posts in these 3 topics are being made by only a handful of players.
I don't support any of the sides. In fact I think all of this have blown way out of proportion over what should have been a personal matter between players.
Instead of resolving anything all this public discussion has just done 3 things:
1. Those who don't care and are ignoring this entire mess.
2. Entertainment for others.
3. Draws more players into the arguments and creating a bigger flame. | umm... 4. improving english skills (thanks to Slynky in the main)
no need to lock the thread yet. i'm gonna miss erudition wars :} | Actually, there is no need whatsoever to restrict clan affiliation. What is needed is a greater variety of moderators so that when there is a potential "conflict of interest" (ie Mod being required to moderate posts by friends/clanmates) they should be able to request the assistance of a Mod unaffiliated in any way with the poster(s) in question. Then the assigned Mod can examine the thread in question without any bias.
Currently this is very difficult as most Mods are close friends/members of a single clan.
Grunge
BTW - I had mentioned the "Conflict of Interest" issue to Kotrin himself as long ago as 15 May 2009. I don't know if he still has my PM, I doubt he would recall the issue (Bevan, Pang, and Heroes Empire "The Colosseum" tournament) but I still have all the posts if he needs them. | I support the call for a greater variety of MODs and Staff. Since most of the posts I've read in the forum these few days have been quite a nuisance since there has been alot of misunderstanding, I suppose the reasonable path would be to foster teamwork, no matter what past occurrences have been.
Too many MODs or Juries from a particular clan? Then have more of them from the variety of clans available. I'm sure for betterment of the game community there are those who will want to volunteer.
Fear of being impartial, biased, or particularly targeting certain quarters? Have decisions discussed within the staff clan chat to follow up on appropriate punishment or actions.
When there's a will, there's a way. | Jokes apart, I can imagine how hard it can be for someone to feel helpless and victim of misconduct of moderators.
But feelings and truth are two different beasts.
It's all too easy for like-minded people to become friend in a clan. They share various values - respect of law or lack thereof, for example.
Imagine a clan where people have a great respect for law, its letter and its intent. This clan would naturally draw like-minded people. Rarely clan members would be caught cheating. And naturally, law-enforcers (moderators, administrators) would naturally be drawn to the clan, or already be clan members when appointed by administration.
Imagine now a clan where people has a "relaxed" attitude regarding rules of the land in general - grown-up swearing too much, rebels, anarchists, whatever. Those people would probably get banned more on average, based on the way of thinking that led them to become friend one with another in the first place. It would be then all too easy to claim that moderation is after them, that there's an ongoing witch hunt and so on.
It's like people dressing themselves like gangsters and drug-dealers to have an attitude, and then complaining that police checks their id more often.
Yet, accusing someone of having a conflict of interest and proving it are two different things. I can't count the number of times I've moderated fellow clan mates (making the reality far less ideal than what's described above). Same, I'm sure 95% of LoS members have never received a ban since they registered. And to add more reality to the mix, some players are members of both LoS and Warriors' Guild.
So, it's more complex than it seems. And I think even limustudotcom would agree that he's not up to cover cheating of LoS members just because they're members of his clan. So if he claims he's able to keep his neutrality and judge things coldly even regarding clan mates, why shouldn't a moderator be able to do the same? | Whether or not there is a conflict of interest is not really important. The key factor is that if there *could be* a conflict of interest, the potentially conflicted person (Mod, Jurist, whatever) should be aware of this and ask another person who obviously doesn't have a conflict of interest to act in their stead.
I work in Government and one of the requirements of jobs where you have to make decisions that affect people outside of the Department is that you have to identify potential conflicts of interest and usually disqualify yourself from making a decision on a matter where you have a potential conflict of interest (unless there is no-one else available to do so, then you must at least declare the potential conflict so that anyone reviewing your decision can take it into account and judge whether the decision is right and proper).
When your work affects other people, avoiding even the perception of a conflict of interest is important, otherwise it can undermine the whole process as people lose faith in what they perceive to be a flawed system.
Incidentally Kotrin, the conflict that I mentioned was regarding Pang moderating a thread started by the leader of a clan he was a member of at the time. The interesting thing was that it was the clan leader (Bevan), not the moderator, that stated that all off-topic posts would be deleted from the thread. It certainly had the appearance of a conflict of interest situation. The reason you became involved was due to the 3 day ban I received for daring to question a moderator who seemed to be acting in favour of the clan leader (who later clearly insulted me in the thread, with the result of his offensive post being deleted, but no penalty being applied). It's one of the most annoying things about the ways that moderators have acted in the past. We are told we should provide evidence of wrongdoing, but often the evidence has been deleted by the Mods themselves. Makes things a little hard wouldn't you say?
Grunge | | Grunge has a point. | I agree 100% with Grunge regarding even the appearance of a conflict of interest. My wife is a lawyer and the type of actions you describe regarding excusing oneself are common practice in the legal field as well.
The difficulty in this case is that there is not enough clan diversity to allow this on either the Mod or Jurist front.
While I agree with many sentiments already expressed that clan affiliation may mean little, it certainly can create the PERCEPTION that things are biased and that is not good with any officially appointed position. | Juries and Keepers are less open to conflicts of interest however as we dont choose who we investigate (but need to work on other people's CaA posts).
Also personal opinions and feelings dont come into it when you are just totalling up amounts from transfer logs and we have already been informed who are multis and who are different characters by Arctic. | Maybe, DiN... but equity would seem to dictate that rules regarding clan affiliation be consistently applied to ALL staff positions. As stated before, just because actual bias may not exist is not enough, there should be nothing that even allows the "perception" of bias to exist.
For what it's worth, I think this should apply to Arctic as well. He, above all others, should always be above any possible perception of bias. Not that I feel he has ever shown any in any way. | I really don't care what clan anyone is in if you break the chat rules you will be banned . Ask Elven_lord and DiN if you disagree with me and if you won't take thier word for it ask sven91 .If you can't do the job without predjudice then remove yourself easy as that.
Better yet remove clans all together if it is such a critical issue. Asking all staff to remove them selves from clans will take away part of the game when and if clan wars comes . Maybe Staff should not be allowed to play the game :P | | | Yes, this thread has probably become redundant to the main thread. I'll let it sit a few more hours and close it if nothing new is raised. | | Although similar this thread does have its own topic. I see no reason to close it, let everyone say what they want on the subject. |
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