| Author | Ethics Violation During the Demon Event |
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First I would like to congratulate WGW for winning the most matches in the demon event.
Yesterday I was informed that Nutella, the temporary leader of WGW(as per their clan thread in the forum) contacted the MC European Foreign Legion(EFL)to rent or borrow some of their active members to beat Elite Warriors, who had almost caught up with them in win totals.
Now EW was outnumbered by many already, according to the clan roster numbers, and EW also has more higher level warriors than WGW, making their matches longer in comparison. Despite this and the fact that WGW had never relinquished its lead after they established it, Nutella found it OK to try and recruit from another active MC near the end of the contest, to ensure a WGW victory.
This is poor sportsmanship and I believe an ethical line was crossed here. The clans were playing for fun, pride, and then promised Empire gold rewards.
I got confirmation that this did indeed happen and is not a baseless rumor. Details can be supplied by those involved if they choose to do so but this action put a stain on both WGW and EWs pure clan vs clan struggle for top spot.
All clans pick up members at war time and some players decide to leave their MC and join another that fits their needs. I played this event as a mercenary, another option.
Trying to raid a friendly MC of their members, even if temporary, during an event of this nature, sends the wrong message and is bereft of any honor whatsoever.
Now I know many WGW members are not happy about this action and NONE knew about her actions until word got out at street level. This thread does not cast any doubt about WGWs victory, as the small amount of members who joined WGW from EFL made no difference in the score. The thread aims to explore what is ethically right between MCs and what to do so these sorts of things don't happen again.
This thread is not about Modi,so stay on topic. I have notified a couple forum mods about my intentions so this will not turn into a flame war.
I do need to post this bit of information about my own journey to EW. I was clanless and asked EFL to play under their banner as a mercenary.(great guys by the way) I found I had a hard time making battles for my level there during my playing hours and had a disagreement with an EFL member about him wearing min arts while I was using enchants and left shortly after that. Bentley from EW PMed me and invited me to play with them. Previously I had reached out to her about working the ring market together so we were on good terms, and I ended up playing many of my matches with her and Nanda. How EW picked me up has nothing to do with how WGW tried to recruit.
There may be facts missing from this case so anyone able to provide them would be welcome to do so here.
Is EW owed an apology? Can we now formulate some council of MCs to make rules of engagement or ethical guidelines? Please post comments and refrain from personal attacks. |
Is EW owed an apology?
All is fair in love and war. :)
EW recruited Mercaneries.
LoS recruited from the top 50 list.
WGW got help from their allies.
I think it was a well fought war and all clans fought honourably and tactically. |
for Dizbe:
To be fair, EW asked me to join them and it was I who told them to label me a mercenary. I was also asked to stay. They had no intention to hire me as a mercenary but if they had, this is not the same thing as going to another MC to pick from their roster to win. Not even close. |
I don't like this action made by our temporary clan leader. I just get to know this information 1 hour ago. But this action was made only by 1 person, nobody can blame other WGW members who just fought in the clan vanguards and brought completely deserved victory.
About role of "mercenaries from EFL" in our victory:
01-02-11 23:25: HK3 has joined the clan.
2 victories
01-03-11 14:41: harddude has joined the clan.
3 victories
01-04-11 18:29: T1000 has joined the clan.
5 victories
01-02-11 18:48: Beveidis has joined the clan.
12 victories
Sum: 22 victories, but remember that they fouhgt not alone, they fought with other 2 regular WGW members, so this number must be divided.
We have 74 more victories over EW, so WGW victory in this event is absolutely deserved. Nothing more to say. |
So, why is EW owed an apology? I think everyone who fought in the demon event did so willingly and on the side they chose themselves, plus there doesn't seem to be any rules against loaning, recruitment, mercenaries, bounty hunters, demon hunting agencies(okay maybe there isn't one of these, but who knows...........)
I'd suggest that there be a prize for the MC that slays the most bosses, with points based on level (level 1 - 1 pt, level 9 - 9 points) but that's not up to me to decide
I would also like to hear from Nutella's side of the story for further clarity on this situation |
for CreatorOfWidows:
If you reread my post, you will see I already covered all that and WGWs victory was won fair and square. Nobody is trying to take that away from your clan.
The question is, do we want these events to become a free for all or should we create an ethics panel among MCs so we can all play by the same rules to make it fair?
If this sort of thing is allowed to go on, our future events will not be even played by some who will probably boycott them. We do not have enough war clan events to have them ruined if we can stop it now. |
Modi, I think it is pretty much close, although not exactly the same. The two MCs, EFL and WGW, tend to each other a lot, they BOTH (!) are calling themselves allied.
An ethical question can definitely be brought up here and discussed by the high rank MC officers, on whether or not such actions are ethically correct.
In fact, I think that gentlemanship between MCs and a fair competition is a very desired thing to see in the game, at least while the number of military clans isn't too high.
Can we now formulate some council of MCs to make rules of engagement or ethical guidelines? Please post comments and refrain from personal attacks.
This is a very sane and mature proposition and I'm wondering whether it really is possible and desired by the MC leaders.
If such a group is found necessary, and MCs appoint their envoys to such a council, I would provide an official clan led by Empire to host a meeting place for such a council, as well as a neutral place to host all the "gentleman agreements" the clan envoys would concede on. |
The question is, do we want these events to become a free for all or should we create an ethics panel among MCs so we can all play by the same rules to make it fair?
It already is fair considering ALL and ANY Mercenary Clans can do the same thing the WGW did. We could have "hired" mercenaries as well (Like EW did with you/others). |
| [Post deleted by moderator Arctic // Please read the entire thread (paying attention to the first post) and come back then.] |
So, why is EW owed an apology? I think everyone who fought in the demon event did so willingly and on the side they chose themselves, plus there doesn't seem to be any rules against loaning, recruitment, mercenaries, bounty hunters, demon hunting agencies(okay maybe there isn't one of these, but who knows...........)
You are correct. There are no written rules about recruiting during an event just as there was no rule when EW members left their clan to make matches in a previous tournament. Plenty of WGW members came to the thread topic talking about honor and such. Now lets see if these same people hold their own clan accountable for what happened during this event. |
| [Post deleted by moderator Arctic // Response to #9, irrelevant now] |
I agree with Modi. I didn't know about Nutella's decision until it happened and I personally did not like the idea.
I didn't approve of any MC-hopping of anyone from the start. But in the end, let us all remember that we all fight for Empire and her safety and health and who a Lady or Lord fights for is irrelevant as long as Empire is safe. We won. Let us all celebrate.
I personally feel that when a war event starts, no one should change membership of a Military Clan if they are already in one. This prevents people leaving MCs for others (Be it for selfish reasons, fame, fortune, or for revenge against an ex-clansmate, etc) but allows for recruitment of new blood from Ladies and Lords that are not in any MC.
Can that be a standing agreement with all the Military clans and all Members of such clans?
- That no one quits an MC during a war event. Quit after it ends if you need to
- No Military Clan will recruit any member that is in another Military Clan during a war event
Just my suggestion. It leaves it open for clan expansion but ensures honourable recruitment and behaviour. No MC changing just to be in a winning clan and no inter-clan tactical help. |
| [Post deleted by moderator Arctic // Reason elaborated in post 39] |
This is a very sane and mature proposition and I'm wondering whether it really is possible and desired by the MC leaders.
If such a group is found necessary, and MCs appoint their envoys to such a council, I would provide an official clan led by Empire to host a meeting place for such a council, as well as a neutral place to host all the "gentleman agreements" the clan envoys would concede on.
for Takesister:
Can that be a standing agreement with all the Military clans and all Members of such clans?
- That no one quits an MC during a war event. Quit after it ends if you need to
- No Military Clan will recruit any member that is in another Military Clan during a war event
This is exactly the sort of idea that should be brought before a council of MC reps and voted on. Arctic has given the MCs an opportunity to make a better game by themselves. Aren't we all wanting more input by the players to shape our world? Here is the chance to at least nail down universal rules of engagement. |
| [Post deleted by moderator Arctic // Reason elaborated in post 39] |
for Decrous:
How can you equate signing up a clanless player to raiding an active and sanctioned MC? It is utterly ridiculous to place these actions on equal ground and I know that more than a few WGW members were not at all happy about what was done. |
[Post deleted by moderator Jedi-Knight // Inappropriate comment. Do not provoke.]
[Player banned by moderator Jedi-Knight until 2011-01-07 04:34:49 // Already been warned in above post//Warning] |
#15
This is not about violation of rules..it's all about gaming ETHICS
If you don't know what it mean..look for yourself |
This is exactly the sort of idea that should be brought before a council of MC reps and voted on. Arctic has given the MCs an opportunity to make a better game by themselves. Aren't we all wanting more input by the players to shape our world? Here is the chance to at least nail down universal rules of engagement.
But will it make it better? The idea in theory is a great one... But I don't imagine it working in the long run.
By establishing a council we remove a tactical element from the wartime process. I'd rather a more interesting war in which clans are jostling for other players, than a war in which we allow follow one set line and the winner becomes predictable because nothing much changes.
What if the council idea fails? All it would take is one fall-out between two MCs and suddenly not all MCs are represented because one or some of them quit.
Also, it may be time to consider our perception. Honour is all about perception. What we perceive to be right is not necessarily what others believe is right.
For instance Modi, How can you equate signing up a clanless player to raiding an active and sanctioned MC?, you use the term "raiding". I use the term, asking a favour of an ally.
To me a raid is defined as a "Sudden assault, or attack". We certainly did not jump in their and steal their players in a sudden raid on their clan ;) |
| [Post deleted by moderator Arctic // Reason elaborated in post 39] |
