| Author | God and Religion |
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Also there are many things science cannot understand.
And the answers to these are "We don't know" but sadly believers tend to take this answer as "It must be God since it is above our comprehension capabilities"
Often it seems a method of mass population control or as an excuse for violence or persecution.
Perfectly said. :) |
Christianity and the bible really aren't as solid a basis as you would like to imagine.
Grunge, please spend a day or two studying the origin of the bible. There have been virtually no discussions about what books should be included in the bible. In the beginning, the letters sent to the west were not known to the churches in the east and vice versa. That was probably the biggest "discussion" about the contents of what we today call the bible. No other scrips from that age is as well documented as the bible. |
I would like to be a bit philosophical now and state that everything we "know" is beliefs.
It is daytime now and I still say that I know that there is a moon orbiting earth. I saw it yesterday and just believe it is still there.
I also "know" that a photon can be both a wave and a particle at the same time. I have made some experiments with lasers, lattices and double-slits. I'm less certain, but the equations make sense and seems logical.
I have also made many calculations using the Heisenberg's uncertainty principle and other quantum mechanical equations. It does not make any sense at all and goes against every instinct about whats logical. Still, I believe in it. Many scientists are telling me that it is true and very few, if any, are disputing it.
I also believe most of what is written in the news I read every morning. Except when it is something I have in-depth knowledge in. A couple of years ago I was part of a team that removed an indication of what could have been a tiny defect in a weld of the 313 system of a BWR nuclear power station. A week after I'm home there is an article in the newspaper about a crack that had just been found in that reactor. First I didn't even understand that it was about the indication I had removed. It was not a crack. Still, I believe most of what I read in the newspaper.
If you think of it, almost everything of what you "know" is actually something someone told you and you happen to trust him. History teach us that the entire humanity often thinks they know something but later it is shown that it is wrong or at least need modification. Many of those examples are in the medicine, but also in physics and other sciences. You have to be very ignorant if you think we have the absolute truth now. |
Sometimes we tend to believe something even when it got obvious flaws or details that can't be explained. One of those is the theory of evolution. It sounds so simple and logical when you are at the level of science they had in the 18th and 19th century. We later found out more about how the chemistry in the body works. Even very simple organisms got thousands of signal substances. The thing they got in common is that they are produced in one place and received in another. The production had to be evolved at the same time as the receiver. Let us look at one of the chains of one of the simplest and most know:
1. When the level of sugar in the blood get high, some cells have a receptor for this and activates.
2. Those cells start producing insulin.
3. Other cells have a receptor for insulin.
4. The cells with the receptor decrease the consumption of fat and change to consuming sugar.
I have so far never seen an explanation for how this simple chain of 4 steps could have evolved. Your body is literally full of those chains that can not have been created link by link. The entire chain will be useless if even one link is gone. Many of those chains are much longer and more complicated.
I'm not saying that evolution is all wrong but I am saying that believing that God created us is just as stupid or intelligent as believing in evolution. |
God now can be only The creater. Before Big Bang and Evolution theory, God had an active rol in the Universe.
In the Bible he could destroy the world, make plagues, resurrect dead, etc. Now the only thing that God can do is to be the Creater.
What changes what people thoughts and what think now?
The answer is that Science can explain a lot now, no need to God to explain lighting or volcanos or earthquakes, science can explain those. The only thing that science has entirely theories (never could confirm those, only get closer to the Truth) is the beggining of the Universe and the Life on Earth. So, the theory of a God is usefull for those things...
People dies everyday in name of religions, and people dies because the advance of science everyday too...
What i chose? I chose that people need to think more in other people a lot more that they think in God or the Universe...
Sorry for the bad english :s |
Enano_
Well, there are miracles in Orthodox Churches, so God is still there and watching you while you sleep.
Player banned by moderator MrBattleControl until 2014-03-03 04:35:04 // FR 1.7//Add. characters aren't allowed to post in main forums |
Do you all believe that the only religion is Christianity? It is just that almost all the points (for or against) seem to be hung up on this 'variant'.
There are a lot of other religions out there, both current and in the past. The Christian religion does not even have the most followers.
Many religions were based in nature or things which were very relevant to things in every day life. Or maybe we should do as the Romans did. Just accept every religion we encounter and pray to the one which most meets our needs on any given day.
I am not trying to upset anyone, but as someone who is very skeptical on who the leaders of all the modern religions are actually working to benefit, I would be interested to see others views. |
What Lord STB has said is exactly how a believers mind works.
When you see no explanation to something, you start inclining towards a fact (which is not even a fact) that it has to be something beyond human understanding and power, which is indicative of God.
If we go back a couple of thousand years, we must be having people who did not know how it rained. They believed it to be beyond our understanding to know why it thunders. Those times they called it God's miracle whenever it rained. Today if we say it's God who has made it rain, we may laugh at that person.
Similarly years from now there will be discoveries to the 4 steps you talked about. What i fail to realise is... Why does "I DON'T KNOW" turn into "GOD'S MIRACLE"
Look at it from this perspective, if there is God, then all he has to do is give us a tangible full proof presence once lf his existence and all the non believers will obviously believe. But NO, he chooses to not do any of that, but rather do miracles which have no solid backing. |
for Enano_:
You yourself said it pretty clearly, the "Theory" of God is applicable where we come to topics which are beyond our knowledge at today's time. I'm sure earlier people used this Theory of God when we had the Northern Hemispheric Sky Auras. But today we know its Solar Flares in the atmosphere.
People die because of Religion and Science. But people live only because of Science.
If science kills people, there are cases where Religion is the driving force to the use of science for slaughter.
The reason why we have so many believers is simply because it's bluntly easy to believe. It's easy to shift the burden of proof. I am telling you right now that there is a Rainbow Unicorn sitting with me as I type this. Many would call me neurotic and would ask me to prove it's existence. But i'll rather want you all to prove that it doesn't exist. If anyone believer can give me reasons why the Rainbow Unicorn besides me doesn't exist, apply the same reasons on "God". |
Look at it from this perspective, if there is God, then all he has to do is give us a tangible full proof presence once lf his existence and all the non believers will obviously believe.
AKA, what do you need to believe? I bet you are asking for too much. Maybe even that God should send down a messenger who walks around among us and does miracles and teaches us about Him. Or that God should resurrect someone and that he shows himself for numerous people afterward? I'm not only talking about showing himself to fanatic followers, but even to the worst enemy of Christianity. Would that be enough for you? |
When we talk about things like Theory of Evolution, we need to consider the fact that we are talking about a span of billions and billions of years. So the probabilities to be taken into consideration would be as good as 1^100 (i guess even that would be less)
So who would have thought there might be a defect which may cause a baby to be born with 8 legs? Oh it happened. So out of the 7 billion people we have 1 baby who got a new deformity of being born with 8 legs. That's 1 in 7,000,000,000.
So it's been around 4-5k years we have started with our scientific advancements and been on this planet and we see this happening (rather being communicated about this being happening on TV, let alone the cases that might have happened in some remote mass communication devoid areas) Imagine what not might happen in the coming 10k years.
So what's the probability of one ape genre to have it's arms develop a thumb? Im sure a million years for an mm of displacement of thumb would suffice to give a proper human like hand in a billion years.
What we fail to realise is, the evolutionary process is SLOW. It's the slowest damn thing ever. Not a single human could have witnessed evolution, cause our life on Earth since our beginning has been waay too short. The points which consider the Theory of Evolution wrong is rather naive. That theory has good fundamentals, of course and obviously in todays times its not well furnished.
But, comparing it to any religion or God would be a sheer insult of the theory. |
for Lord STB:
I fail to understand how am I asking for too much if all I ask is tangibility. I guess that's a fundamental property any mortal or non mortal should satisfy for it's existence.
And as far as the messengers of God's are concerned. They were all lunatics who were taken to seriously. If today we get someone calling himself the messenger of God, we see his bloodline and if not belonging to the higher hierarchy, label him mentally challenged. |
Allegedly "god" loves everyone and wants them to go to "heaven".
However to go to "heaven" (carrot) apparently requires belief in that particular god (true certainly for the 2 big religions, christianity and islam).
If you don't believe, of course, you supposedly go to "hell" (stick).
If "god" loves everyone so much surely it would make itself known so that everyone could go to "heaven" as god supposedly desires.
"holy" books like the bible claim amazing miracles in the past - talking burning bushes, manna from the sky, parting the red sea, stopping the sun in the sky for most of a day (you really need to think about that one to understand the significance), etc - however now there not only aren't any equivalent demonstrations but many things the "holy" books claim can be shown to wrong.
https://m.xkcd.com/1235/
Nowadays most religious advocates fall back on "personal experience" because there seems to be no other evidence to present (apart from falacious arguments - like "we don't fully understand diabetes therefore god").
However if god is omnipotent, as so many claim, then he could easily provide "personal experiences" for everyone, with ease.
The fact that this doesn't happen IMO most likely means one of two things - god doesn't care whether the majority of the population goes to hell or religious advocates who claim personal experience are lying.
But why would religious advocates lie? It's not like they make great wads of cash from making such claims. Oh they do? Darn!
Have Fun
Grunge |
Grunge, please spend a day or two studying the origin of the bible. There have been virtually no discussions about what books should be included in the bible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon#Early_proto-Orthodox_definition_attempts
You're right, there was virtually no discussion about what books should be included. On a few occasions small groups or individuals decided what they thought was the "real" bible - like Marcion and Irenaeus. Ultimately christianity was forced to formulate a mutually agreed upon bible to stop independent attempts to do the same.
It is astonishing how many known documents that have been excluded from the bible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament_apocrypha
My favorite is the Judas Gospel. http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/_pdf/GospelofJudas.pdf?fs=www7.nationalgeographic.com&fs=magma.national geographic.com
And that's not even considering the possible number of unknown documents that previously existed but have been expunged from history - mainly for religious reasons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_book-burning_incidents
Have Fun
Grunge |
What i'm eager about isn't whether or not God exists, but its more about- why does he exist? and if he does, is his existence just about the observation and judgement of human lives/sins on earth?
When believers of that "existence" talk about "it", they probably think of it as a powerful spirit that has limitless abilities.
When believers who have specifically adopted a religion, they can probably visualise that spirit in a more definite form like Jesus, allah, etc.
My question to believers - Why do you think that God(your version) exists? You might talk about miracles.. But are you ready to understand that every religion has different claims for occurrences such as those that have been defined as miracles?
If i could ask one question to the non-believers - Why do you think science contradicts Religious beliefs? Seriously, every time a skeptic person opens his mouth regarding this issue will use either science or the ambiguity in biblical views/verses. Do we not understand that science can explain rain now through vapour cycle in atmosphere, but a believer will still question the rising of vapour and relate the whole mechanism as a planned model of "God" ? |
i'd love to witness the day when science finally gets to the ultimate question.
Why does the universe exist? at all?
no matter how it reached the present state , why did it exist on the first place ..
tell me that and you'll have turned an agnostic to an atheist |
When I was younger I asked my father why god had so persecuted the Scottish.
He said to me 'what do you mean? He gave us beautiful landscapes. Rivers teeming with salmon and the water is used to make Whisky, truely the nectar of the gods, also this water provides cheap and clean hydro electicity. He built the whole country on vast reserves of oil and other natural resources. How can you say he has been bad to us?'
'Yes', I said 'but look at the neighbours he gave us. ' |
| There is too much confusion in trying to prove or disprove Gods existence. I dont believe PEOPLE will ever prove or disprove the existence of God. I do believe God is real. I also believe he made a way for his people to know it. I believe it is as simple as asking him. I know this is going to be mocked and treated with sarcasm, but if a person asks with true sincerity and is patient then I believe God will make Himself known to any person who is an earnest seeker of him regardless of what church they do or dont attend. |
Well said GeraldTerrant...
I'm also a believer of God and there is no need to prove it. Right time he proves his existence just we need to have that kind of sight. Every small happiness to sadness he is with us, what differs is our thinking. I would never force an atheist to believe but it's our thinking that matters. |
about religion..
God is one its we who has made religion and we r the for the cause of this destruction . It's just that we see God in different forms but religion made him differ and there's nothing wrong but we do make it wrong. |
