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| Author | How is the balance between might and mage combat builds with available enchants? |
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for AKA:
Is it me or we just skipped the fact that Magic Enchants also have Ignore xx% Air, Earth, Water, Fire Shield which very drastically add to the damage dealt in Enchanted Battles.
That's exactly why magic DE dominates full enchanted PVPs. Might weapon enchant effect gets cancelled (or mostly) by armor enchants however jewelry enchant effects get little resistance from armor enchants. | chaos De has one serious nemesis. its ironicly another chaos build. to be exact, one UNIT :p
never seen a max loadstone golem wizard lose to a chaos DE, if arts same.
seen some amazing results like 1-2 LEVEL gap is meaningless, lvl 21 chaos DE teams losing lvl 19 wizards, all with max enhanced survilog sets.
btw, almost NO migth build can beat chaos DE (or that damn new wizard), if all has same quality sets, fsl, resists etc etc.
admins should realy consider giving original barbarian trait back, else, Im afraid, dominance of chaos builds will eventualy kill all pvp fun :( | Imagine everyone has fsl 4 resistance against each other, then the resistances kinda cancel out as the damage ratios of each faction remains the same.
No. The mage relies on killing quickly the ennemy. Resistance makes it weaker and requires more mana to kill and you kill less before the ennemy reaches you. Not saying mage doesn't benefit too but it does not cancel out with different builds/factions.
admins should realy consider giving original barbarian trait back, else, Im afraid, dominance of chaos builds will eventualy kill all pvp fun :(
Keep an imbalance and add another one to the mix. That's certainly the recipe for good balance. | Is it me or we just skipped the fact that Magic Enchants also have Ignore xx%
I had, I noticed it after my last post.
I was wrong, sorry for the fuss. | | Chaos DE hits hard,but other hybird build are also dangerous,mainly battlewizs and charmers | Might weapon enchant effect gets cancelled (or mostly) by armor enchants
Keep in mind that only a third of the armor enchant works against the damage bonus from weapon enchants. | | A good balancing would be if Rings, Necklaces and Cloaks can have Might Enchantments on them. This would certainly even out the current disparity. But yeah, if rings and necklaces get offense enchants then that would tip everything towards might side, so I'd say defense enchantments would do good to counter the 'Ignore xx% Elemental Shield'. | for Magier:
sure it's not really cancelled out, I shouldn't have said that. But in comparison with armor enchant vs jewelry enchant, the different is huge. We can see a chaos DE dealing 1k+ damage with chain lightning/meteorite rain, more than double of the damage we can see in CG combats. While this effect is much less for mighty builds. | I'm honestly disappointed that I wasn't proven wrong for assuming the dominance of DE mages (or chaos builds in general).
I know this isn't a fair battle as there is one level 13 on the might player side. But there are certain things to be learned from looking at this battle. For instance, we see the first two rains cleared pretty much everything that was ranged along with the troops that do not get to charge ahead of that deadly 4x4 square before hero can cast.
https://www.lordswm.com/war.php?lt=-1&warid=767148525
The boars and firebirds deal a lot of damage, but its also true that barb got luck on every turn (even though he has 5 luck, the probability of trigger still remains 50% if i am not wrong). Barb also got the much needed morale burst on boars after they charged on a 2 unit stack of shrew. At this point, i'm still not very hopeful after seeing how everything else behind boars and birds is already down in one shot. Few moments later, i see one lightning on boars, 87 down! I am done. lol.
Its just insane haha. Where did the elemental shields go? 1.2k damage after reductions is insane regardless of what kind of offense build you come up with, that hp count is just too little to survive. After watching that battle, i can say that if the 2 initial meteor rains were directed on boars and birds that would be all it takes to remove nearly 80% offense from barb. I am not wrong in assuming this number. Barb does rely on those two units heavily and i think you would agree. That's just too harsh of a reality. | While I have not undertaken these sorts of battles, nor am likely to, I do enjoy thinking them through.
Like all battles it is not just a matter of who can deal lots of damage theoretically, it is also who can bring it to bear effectively. The classic case of a big stack of guardians who can smash anything to pieces, but cannot catch the running gargs for instance.
An additional big advantage of the chaos builds in this high damage arena is that they can aply it anywhere, allowing tactical flexibility and easier adaptation to your opponents builds. The counter to a mage build is equally to hit them hard and fast and being able to remove one of them quickly In truth however this is true about all high damage situations, the team who can remove the damage dealing capacity in the opening, wins later on.
There are two ways of being able to ensure that both armies can attack one opponent and neutralise them, magic and high ini troops with high speed or else shooters with no ranged. Obviously this goes straight to charmer elf.
My supposition is thus then, would a double mage DE beat a charmer might and chaos DE. My suspicion is that the charmer elf could charge in on the DE opposite, which would then be augmented by focus from the ally DE. With a greater temporal ring and morale, some elf troops may hit twice prior to casting.
The double mage then has to eradicate high damage troops of elf to stop damage dealing situation. However they will be spread probably prior to first casts, preventing meteor or lightning being able to hit all of them.
This of course leaves DE ally fine, all the while charmer is building up there own magic abilities, forcing them to finish it off. Chances are by the time they have eaten up the elf, one of the DE mages is gone and so it is a direct fight off between equal builds. Elf teamate should then on average win.
Of course for a double magic opponent battlewise wiz with golems will survive better, however the DE chaos has more flexibility against more opponents.
Certainly I think this combo is in my opinion going to be a mix which is going to be hard placed to be beaten with any regularity.
I also think it is not just a matter then of mage being overpowered in this, but it polarises he who strikes first wins. Any build that relies on durability and the counter will struggle, any build that can get strikes in first (particularly if they are not impeded by being reduced by being out of range) will win.
So chaos magic and elves shall ever dominate this avenue of battles I would imagine | for Lord MilesTeg:
"The counter to mage is to equally hit them hard and fast."
But very few times, you will be able to avoid blocking shrews, core units being affected by delay or what not. Basically mage can employ all the resources and abilities of his army to withstand the offense and there is a very definite way to hamper the offense capability of your opponent directly which is by bursting the main troops down in as few casts as possible - the magic school 4 spells with enchants are very potent in this case.
As is see it, the damage output of might guy gets weaker too soon with time as he is losing his army rapidly in this case. I suspect charmer elf is like the fastest in terms of relative damage and initiative so i do think it has the better chance out of others however it still relies on morale triggers. | I personally think charmed won't stand a chance against 2 DE casters at all.
1 - They don't have access to magic school level 3 and above, in fact they can't even choose sorcery nor destruction.
2 - It takes time until they farm some SP.
3 - They're the second faction with lowest hitpoints/survivability by default. (sure vitality, rally and brethen commander, but it often cost offensive capabilities instead.)
Also even with shiftness their units could be blocked as any other faction... So unicorns won't be so problematc as they normaly are, and forest brenthres are a easy prey against any chaos caster. Since we're talking about 2 chaos DE's on the enemy team, it's possible and likely that almost all unicorns and brenthres get almost completely destroyed, and so the sharpshoters if they're close enough to each other.
If we're talking about Might vs Chaos specifically, I think an normal elf would've a better chance, since they could get barrier, resistance and magic proof aura from the unicorn, plus fsl resistance, magic proof from items and defensive enchantments, they also have good initiative/speed units and could take some leadership. | for Angel of Death:
Lol are you serious? Obviously a charmer would be much better than classic elf in such situations, and be pretty good against DE. First of all, a mage de would have very low initiative, a charmer unicorn stack could easily have much higher ini and thus not be blocked. Ladons and liz should be killed by fb and unicorns and minos by sharpshooters. Also note that charmers would strike before even DE troops get extra 30% def from defending, charmer would wreck such a DE if with heavy enchants. Not to mention if fb comes twice before enemy hero(which is easily achievable without even morale if you have decent morale and that temporal ring) it won't be surprising even if one of the DE's don't even get a single turn.
Charmer has to be very obviously the best might faction against mage DE in case of heavy enchantments. | a charmer unicorn stack could easily have much higher ini and thus not be blocked.
What I meant is that pristine unicorns would easily easily easily come before shrews, especially if you have GT ring. | which is easily achievable without even morale if you have decent morale and that temporal ring
I meant decent initiative, not morale... sorry for typo's. | Each factions has his own strenghts and weakness, making your argument based on pros for a theorically outcome, won't actually make it happen, otherwise there would be no losers, because every single faction can be strong in some particular way.
You've talked like the normal elf doesn't have the same units, the same speed, and a similar initiative... Actually the normal elf has more troops/settlement, which converts into more survability and damage output at short period of time, besides against an chaos caster, FK will be a simple no brainer choice instead FB. Yes the prime and sharps could be better, but they won't stand longer than 1 turn anyways, at least the normal elf could stand longer.
Even if the charmed spend 32 talent points in order to get aura of swifness (which won't allow him/her to get barrier + resistence.), if he/she don't manage to kill all the ladons on the first strike, the unicorns/dragons won't be abled to reach the minotaurs or posioners depending on preference at the corner, in their next action. Not that really matter, because since we're talking about 2 DE casters, we'll have one of the following situations.
1 DE caster will obliterate unicorns and FBs with 1 cast, then go forward sharps.
2 DE decided to unite themselves to obliterate the charmed elven, a lot earlier than he could start building a decent SP pool to be userful without his primary dps units. Then they could switch to the other enemy, kill their offensive units, then switch back to finish the charmed off, or perhaps do both at same time with chain lighting.
Another simple solution to counter sharps without needing to kill them, is just to cast a confusion with the dark witches, not really rocket science.
For speed, decent initiative and a hell lot superior raw damage and ranger power on a short period of time, there's the fury barb. Just take your time to look how it performed, there's a combat link on this thread.
Again I'm going to repeat, the problem with charmed is their lack of survivability combinated with the time needed to build SP. That's the problem. | By the way, pristine unicorn has 12 init, while shrews has 16.
Which means the charmed elven will need at least 34% more initiative than the dark elven, assuming he won't get a single extra initiative point from artefacts or his own FSL.
Good luck on that. | I don't think Elves really stand a chance against Chaos DE. The problem with elves is that they are too Luck dependent, without which the damage is below average.
I time and again point out that factions which rely heavily on lower tier troops tend to perform worse on the higher levels. Best example is Red Demon whose primary damage dealers are lower tier spawns, cerbs and incendiaries. Lower tier troops have very low base attack and defense to genuinely penetrate the opponent.
Elf faces the same problem, the primary damage dealer for Charmer are Pristine > Sharps > Forest Brethren > Draco > Savage Tree > Druid (I don't see any higher level use Sprites honestly) Very visible is the fact that the Primary damage dealers (Top 3) have 2 lower tiers with pathetic HP. The top most damage dealer is useless for 1st Turn since shrews will block them. Even if you counter by saying, you can wait with Uni for first turn... Caster will get it's turn before Uni. Uni needs to have around 24 Ini to wait and get a turn before caster, Impossible. Charmer thus can deal damage with just 2 good stacks and weak 2 Draco's in turn 1. Turn 2 leaves you with just Unis, since FB and Sharps are one hit kills. Pristine, 2 hit kill. Sad as it may sound, in 2 turns a Charmer can be left to scrap. | Would agree to Angel that amongst the two Elves, Classic Elf would fare better. Ability to get offense + Magic resistance + Luck. Double the amount of Dracos. More HP with FK. Double Trees. 30% Magic Resist on Unis. Critical + Luck can down a Ladon in 2 turns.
But again although better, Classic Elf too is no match for caster DE. FK goes down in 2 turns. FK damage is no where close to impacting Ladon. And if you want FK to reach opponent in one turn, you have to sacrifice Luck. Out here I rather think Ranged Classic Elf does much better. 1st Turn you have Archer + Anchor + Draco getting confirmed hits. Anchor has a lot of Meat, can sustain 3 turns. Tree can take some damage from Chain Light and Meteoride Rain.
But in all honesty, Elves start becoming weaker from Level 14 onwards. Savage Treant is a biG joke as per me. 2 Draco's for Charmer is another joke. I used to play Elf a lot before. Switched to Tribal, raw power + can take a LOT of hits. Went back to Elf, felt like paper. Without Luck it is just way under powered. I've seen opponent efks, full stack dealing 30-40 damage to my enforcers. Funny | Problem with might vs magic is that most of defences gets penetrated.
All magic resist that are not from enchants work at 10% efficiency vs magic enchants
4 magic arts with max penetration will ignore 83% of the 40% protection from 4x12% defensive arts, leaving a meager 7% def remaining
Damage also does not drop off when troops get killed
A solution could be to have magic artifacts penetration effects also work on weapon enchant damage.
3 12% weapons do +- 32% extra damage
Against 4 12% armors (40% reduction) they would do 19% extra damage
With penetration of 3 x 36% penetration they would do 28.5% extra damage |
This topic is long since last update and considered obsolete for further discussions.
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