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| Author | How is the balance between might and mage combat builds with available enchants? |
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By the way, pristine unicorn has 12 init, while shrews has 16.
Which means the charmed elven will need at least 34% more initiative than the dark elven, assuming he won't get a single extra initiative point from artefacts or his own FSL.
You are wrong that arts don't count. Mage arts don't give any initiative, so obviously I will count mage arts. And including The 15% boost(which will be on top of the already boosted unicorns) it will be only 10-15% more needed(note that it won't be simply 34-15=19% because the 15% boost works on top of all the other boosts, including fsp, so it will be at least worth 20%) now let's say u r wearing a high ini set, such as the GT set, it's easily achievable. | AKA you've understand my point completely, that's what I was trying to say.
Between charmed and elfs, I believe that elfs would probably perform better, although I wasn't saying that elfs were DE chaos killers at full enchanted fights.
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Random, I don't have a clue about what you're trying to say, bet let's go with parts.
DE FSL 12 = 14% initiative
Let's assume he/she has TG/RG at least level 5, which is pretty easy to achieve. +5%
Why guild and fsl is relevant since both will have the same or very similar result? Because each initiative point shrews will get 0.16, while pristine 0.12.
So the higher it's, the more the pristine will need.
Continuing, sets. You've mentioned that the might will be wearing a survilong, so it's only fair to compare in the same situation ground, the chaos DE will also be wearing a survilong set.
Survilong mage set = 13% initiative with scroll, or 14% initiative with shield.
Total 32 or 33% initiative, so shrews goes to 21.12 or 21.28. (It could go higher, since I've picked a highly undeveloped guild level.)
Even so, in order to pristine goes first it would need a total of 76% to 78% initiative.
Which I believe that you can understand that those numbers cannot be achieved. | Going past shrews is impossible for any Tank unit in this game. Only possibility is if you use Draco to clear them off to make way for Uni. Which is what is easily possible once you get Tier 7 Upgrades.
Before someone jumps in and goes, 'If you like Chaos DE so much, why don't you become one'... Well I'm saving up for exactly that. :P
And I'm in no way saying that Elf is bad. Just that it is too heavily reliant on Luck and Critical. I admit to have seen battles where Elves swoop down entire opponent armies and destroy over 50% opponent in just the 1st Turn. Oh hell I've seen mixed battles where entire opponents have been cleared in the 1st turn almost. But these are those battles where you got the perfect combination of luck and critical + morale (Morale elf is crazy good. Efk can reach shooters before they get a turn) But when it comes to enchanted battles, they lag behind. (But not as behind as Red Demon... Red Demon is one faction that is genuinely nerfed as per me, only defense red demon is viable. Chaos red demon is good only after level 18 where you can get last breath + Chaos Talents, waiting to get to level 18 and use that ofc) | for Angel of Death:
I thought the mage will be wearing some other set, but yeah with survilurg set it is indeed impossible for unicorns to overtake shrews' ini, however,
Only possibility is if you use Draco to clear them off to make way for Uni.
I don't know why but I total forgot this point lol! Since dragons damage is going to be nowhere near pristine's damage it is surely a good idea.
There is another option, as I have suggested, elf should take the tactics ring, and also innate swiftness, so in the first turn we will have 8 speed for unicorns along with tactics, so effectively 9 speed, so even if a stack of shrews blocks pristines you can simply go around it and hit the target without even having to kill the shrews with dragons. | Temporal set should be good for mighty elf build, too. with set bonus and fsp/guild bonus, it's not too hard to achieve +50% initiative, considering +15% ATB scale effect, pristine unicorn has decent change to move before shrews
that being said, it's still not a guarantee for charmer elf to beat chaos DE | for liuker:
Yes I agree GT set is good, but even then it's not guaranteed you will go first.
that being said, it's still not a guarantee for charmer elf to beat chaos DE
I would love to see that in practice, a 2vs2 preferably with all same CL and 3 de's and one charmer, I think the side with charmer has a very decent chance. | I think there are still a few things to add to this discussion as I am still in disagreement that a double DE mage is going to beat everything. Why do I think this, firstly based around game mechanics - reinforced by the fact that IF they were clear winners all the time, then all tax battles would be based around these (of which they are not).
So first basis - DE chaos can do a considerable amount of damage to whomever they want which does not decline untill every troop is dead. This allows them to target preferentially any stack and reduce damage dealt to them. The weakness to these is that they cannot start doing damage till their hero moves at around about ini 11 ish.
Might build factions can deal more damage than a mage can (multiple damage dealer as opposed to just teh hero really doing damage, but only while troops are in play, this then declines - potentially quite rapidly. A number of factions have sufficient troops which can contact the enemy very quickly (prior to hero casting) and deal large amounts of damage initially. These would quickly decrease should they face two opponents for any length. However, despite the lower HP of these sorts of factions they may be able to wie out one DE mage before they could kill the might faction. Thus giving a situation of DE mage vs DE mage + weakened might hero. Balance then goes to the team with two heroes in play.
With elves almost all their troops would move before the hero casts, which if against two DE mages would not have been weakened by enemy shooters etc, so would be able to deal full levels of damage (provided they could hit the relevant troops. Secondly since they can have massive ini (eg EFK and FB) with morale they could get into the mix of the enemy to prevent viable chain lightning or meteorites, thus reducing their ability to quickly wipe out large numbers of stacks. Other factions tend to have more troops that would not be able to hit prior to hero casts, though can have devastating damage to a static army not cut out for might (most significantly dwarves with rune of retribution on invokers - not shrews would probably not be able to block this as a small stack of beserkers with speed rune would likely be able to clear a path (usually blocking shrews are of sufficiently low numbers). This may be why often in tax battles there seems to be a slightly larger number of dwarves than the normal distribution of factions would suggest (I have not looked closely but that seems to be the case).
Generally speaking as well with many of these battles (tax at least) there is the balance of flexibility. IF you attacked with two DE mages, you would simply get defended by two battlewise mages - good luck clearing them by magic! All factions/builds have a nemesis, putting two of the same faction together means that the armies they are good at defeating will be defeated even easier, though equally, those builds they struggle against individually will gain a further advantage.
Therefore if I was putting together clan tax battles I would generally engineer it to have a DE mage with a might counter part that was high ini with good first strike capability - elves as preference. Alternatively you could use a battlewise wiz due to resistance to mages, and then compensate for the slower magic damage output with a first striker might counter part with more survivability in terms of total hp - Dwarf for instance or barbs.
At the end of the day however, until we find some of these battles and see what actually tends to occur all of this is supposition! | The primary aim for any mage is to deal maximum damage per turn. DE does that with Elemental Call. One might argue that this drains their mana too, well there are so many battles where mages hit the dust with almost half or more of their mana pool left. DE over comes this with the help of Elemental Call, ensuring maximum DPT.
In order to cast maximum, you need to be able to survive. For that your creatures need to be able to take a lot of damage. And how can they do that? By getting more defense. Oh wait, that indeed is their faction skill, a skill that has 0 impact on Might DE. Similar to the skills of Red Knight and Dark Demon, 0 Impact on their might counterparts. Back to the point, DE gets enhanced defense which gives it more survival-ability.
To put this in perspective, a Level 19 DE at FSL 12 gets roughly 12 extra defense. Add that to Defense +30% that the creatures usually are in, that's 16 Extra defense as compared to any other mage build.
The first turn can make or break a casters game, hence it is essential to block out on opponent 8 Speed units. Well, DE does that best with Shrews that are never outmatched in initiative (Wreckers do that too, but have less initiative in comparison and can be over taken by Elf) So first turn hits are a hit and miss in all games.
To ensure that you survive longer by taking less damage and dealing more damage over time it is essential for your opponent to be Slow. Well DE has Delay casters who are decently fast too. Plus, they are good damage magnets and take the damage in the first turn thus giving other creatures the opportunity to go into defense stance. Plus, they have confusion, just in case the opponent is archer build.
There is no mage build as versatile as DE. And I can't dig right now, but I've seen enchanted DE v/s Enchanted Battlewiz (Lodestone Golems) where DE mage deals more damage than what the Lodestone can resurrect. Can't really beat this. | but I've seen enchanted DE v/s Enchanted Battlewiz (Lodestone Golems) where DE mage deals more damage than what the Lodestone can resurrect. Can't really beat this.
Yes, as hard to believe it may be this happens very often. Check out this battle. It was shared by lord selfist.
https://www.lordswm.com/war.php?warid=752540903<=-1
However, the lead in damage is still not enough to justify the mana required which still puts lodestones at an advantage. Everything else you have said though, i completely agree. |
This topic is long since last update and considered obsolete for further discussions.
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