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| Author | How is the balance between might and mage combat builds with available enchants? |
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In a might versus mage group pvp among same combat levels with high to max amount of enchants, I would like to know whether or not spell amplification dominates damage bonus.
I am thinking it can get quite impossible to deal against 2 mages as they can obliterate one player with 2-3 meteor rains. Well, the might guy does a lot of damage too, but there are actually lot of ways to interrupt troops, thus lowering the impact of approaching units which is unlike hero damage that gives consistent output (mostly).
More than anything, the total hp count can be relatively very small when facing against amplified spells. I know that its the same against mage too which means that the might player with insane damage can crush the defending army but again I am convinced that there can only be so many speed 8 units and ranged units that can reliably achieve a desirable output before taking that shower of death.
What do you think? I would really appreciate response from people who have played in FFA style battles (outside AI controlled quick tournament please). | | [Post deleted by moderator Magier // by request] | Going against 2 mages is a trainwreck as per me. And if these mages are DE then it's an instant Game over. Consider it this way, any mage would have 7 Stacks on the field, which means it would take minimum 7 hits from might player to end the mage, this said ignoring the fact that even with full enchants, creatures like Ladons, Sphynx, Golems, Minos take 2-3 hits to die.
Given that mages usually have 11-11.5 ini in game, it means that there is a good chance that they can get a turn before shooter stacks (upto 12.5 ini) post which Expert Sorcery can give them a turn before any tank unit like Minos, Guardians, Enforcers who tend to be the primary damage dealers for the respective factions.
One meter shower can roughly kill 75% of stacks under the rain in one go. There is absolutely no scope for those units to deal any damage then. With 2 mages, within 3-4 turns opponent armies can be cleared. This is very well known and hence usually for Clan Survi Battles PvP clans always prefer sending 1 Might player and 2 DE Mages, since DE Mages can effectively empty their mana pool quicker. Wizards in the other hand die with around 70-80 mana still left. | | Shouldn't the armor pieces reduce the damage? | Why I consider it is tipped towards Chaos in lay man terms is...
Might gets 3 damage enchants max as pointed by Angel above. 3 defense enchants (given left hand has gone for damage). These 3 damage enchants are countered by the Defense enchants worn by Chaos + we have Attack and Defense parameters which further reduce damage dealt by creatures. Also the number of creatures that can reach the opponent before the hero turn is very integral for such battles as said by Original Poster. So only creatures with 12.5 ini + (say) will deal 100% stack damage before being casted upon.
Chaos has 6 damage enchants (heavy advantage) (Staff + Ring + Ring + Necklace + Left Hand Scroll + Cloak). 3 defense enchants. (Even) To counter 6 damage enchants might has 3 defense enchants (4 max). Attack and Defense plays no role whatsoever. Hero can damage anywhere, so no point of creature speed or initiative. Creatures are always on Defense, thus 30% bonus defense parameter always virtually exists for a caster (advantage).
Consider all this, and it is very much skewed towards the caster as per me. This is a very good topic for debate honestly, glad Original Poster got this up. | for Angel of Death:
Ofc they do, and what you said is 200% correct. But even the mage has the same armor pieces for defense, so on this part both Might and Magic kind of end up equal. But a point to note is that defense armor individually cancels element damage enchantments on weapons, so 3 Defense Enchantments against 3 Weapon Damage enchantments gives much better defense than 3 Defense Enchantments against 5 (or 6, I don't remember cloak enchantments honestly) Spell Damage enchantments.
My special emphasis would be on DE here, since Elemental Call is kind of like a Half Luck for DE. And the mana pool of 150+ mana is more than enough to clean the field when you have spell damage enchantments. | | [Post deleted by moderator Magier // by request] | | [Post deleted by moderator Magier // by request] | Staff enchant doesn't add to spell damage, so it is 5 (Ring + Ring + Necklace + Left Hand Scroll + Cloak). If you use scroll, you can't use shield. I usualy prefer to use shield for PvP so I am left with 4 damage amplifiers.
If you insist on using scroll instead of shield, your defense is pathetic and adding +30% to pathetic still equals pathetic.
The above is from wizard experience, I never realy played mage DE. | | [Post deleted by moderator Magier // by request] | | [Post deleted by moderator Magier // by request] | Staff enchant doesn't add to spell damage, so it is 5 (Ring + Ring + Necklace + Left Hand Scroll + Cloak). If you use scroll, you can't use shield. I usualy prefer to use shield for PvP so I am left with 4 damage amplifiers.
If you insist on using scroll instead of shield, your defense is pathetic and adding +30% to pathetic still equals pathetic.
The above is from wizard experience, I never realy played mage DE.
* I am reposting it as it was my opinion, not Barbs, sorry for confusion. Can a mod delete #9 pls, it was my fault and Barb has nothing to do with that discussion. thx | But a point to note is that defense armor individually cancels element damage enchantments on weapons, so 3 Defense Enchantments against 3 Weapon Damage enchantments gives much better defense than 3 Defense Enchantments against 5 (or 6, I don't remember cloak enchantments honestly) Spell Damage enchantments.
With 10% lightning enchant, I can get a 67% damage increase if my calculations are right ( 1- (0.8x0.8x0.8...)) and with the might enchant I get an extra 27% damage per enchant type; there 4 types of enchants so it amounts to 108% extra damage.
Staff enchant doesn't add to spell damage, so it is 5 (Ring + Ring + Necklace + Left Hand Scroll + Cloak). If you use scroll, you can't use shield. I usualy prefer to use shield for PvP so I am left with 4 damage amplifiers.
If you insist on using scroll instead of shield, your defense is pathetic and adding +30% to pathetic still equals pathetic.
The above is from wizard experience, I never realy played mage DE.
I would go with shield too in classical PvP; the early scroll is pathetic, but the high level one looks much more viable. Adding enchants on top I'm not sure what I would go with.
On early levels I would expect the might to have the upper hand because when you just have fireball or lightning it doesn't matter that much how much you kill when there are 3 stacks of sharpshooters that can kill a stack per turn or so.
Later on with ini arts for the mage and chain lightning/meteor shower I imagine the mage to have a much better chance, maybe the upper hand.
Either way, I don't really think that enchants are balanced. The balance has been worked on for years on battles in full arts, so enchanted battles should be as balanced as min AP (whoever hits first wins so range, initiative and damage are king).
As for two mage DE it sometimes roll in mixed PvP and it's a bit absurd as you die before you can move indeed (depending a lot on your faction and ability to hit in 1st move). But it's not that much different than two slow might factions facing two charmer elves where you need luck to move one stack before bethren/uni/sharpshooters; even if you can eventually kill the melee the powerful range is just too much if you can't take it down early. | | Is it me or we just skipped the fact that Magic Enchants also have Ignore xx% Air, Earth, Water, Fire Shield which very drastically add to the damage dealt in Enchanted Battles. | Is it me or we just skipped the fact that Magic Enchants also have Ignore xx% Air, Earth, Water, Fire Shield which very drastically add to the damage dealt in Enchanted Battles.
Yeah I was reading all the post being surprised how no one pointed that out lol.
The enchants will raise those 100 into 140 dmg, but when it hits the enemy target it will be reduced by 40%, which would actually be 84 damage final.
That is completely incorrect, the overall mage damage would increase significantly not decrease, duh.
Here's the main problem for might in such battles:
Your damage output increases but not your hp. For factions like elf which deal damage very fast, their problem is a lower total hp, for other factions which have more hp, they are usually slower, therefore you are likely to die very fast, however going back to the main question of the topic, I believe mage and might are quite well balanced, though I think certain factions are just bad against mage, such as and holy or darkness factions, classic knight(too slow), necro(also slow, and damage output isn't enough) and in some cases tribal, you are in trouble with tribal if opponent mage starts casting before you have gained enough spirit.
Factions which are good against mage DE: Elf, charmers in general, and even classic if you get tactics(or that tactics ring) plus innate swiftness, giving dragons speed 10, unicorns 9 and efk 8, fury barb, definitely need a very high initiative and at least 8 speed for boars... ogre trophy hunters are slow, therefore preferably goblin archers mostly to deal fast damage and be used as a distraction, probably also classic demon is good, with very high ini cerberi and horses both should come before enemy hero even after gating, and finally dwarf is just great, tanky as well as fast(would be preferable if you have tactics rune, you can use retribution with bears on first turn with speed 8).
Note all factions above should have a GT ring for the extra 15% ini at start of combat, it would make a significant different, as well as try to get the tactics ring for the other slot. And if we talk about mage vs mage DE, I think wizards would be pretty decent(especially BW with lodestones) against DE, mage demons probably wont do to bad either but harder to predict how mage demon vs mage de will be like. Oh and also firewall UN is interesting as well, against both might and mage DE.
In conclusion: It is fairly balanced, depends on preferences. | would be preferable if you have tactics rune
tactics ring* | | Topic moved from "Queries and help" to "General game forum". | This is a very good topic for debate honestly, glad Original Poster got this up.
carry on :) | Shouldn't we factor in faction resistance ?
Something like : everyone has a bit of DE, but the DE doesn't have a bit of all ? | for Derelict:
Yeah but that is an exceptional case, we are talking in general. Imagine everyone has fsl 4 resistance against each other, then the resistances kinda cancel out as the damage ratios of each faction remains the same.
However for the mage it's of course better to have a large amount of resistance. |
This topic is long since last update and considered obsolete for further discussions.
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