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| Author | All about Wizard faction: Stats, Talent, Tactics, Strategy |
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Just why I didn't used titans doesn't means I don't know how they could work better or worse.
Do you see atoms? But they still exist. Your argumetantion is based on personal opinions raised by self ilusions.
For the sake of arguing: let me use a quote from ancient Greece: "I know that I know nothing". Nothing might be a bit rough; though the first step to a solid argumentation is to acknowledge what you know of and what you don't; arguing about what you don't will ultimately lead you to be wrong. | That's interesting you mention about Socrates words "All I know is I know nothing" when you're arguing about your personal opinion for itself.
Anyways, I haven't tested titans here, but at same way you haven't, so how could you say they're better on might than chaos? I've a theory to support my thinking, based on how tactics works, chaos wizards got lower might parameter and high range damage cuz of hero, so the most basic thing to do is charge them down, don't you agree with me? Does you win a battle against a chaos faction by standing by on right corner without charge them? Do you?
And for the record, I've tested titans on Heroes V, I know exactly what they're capable of. (Of course some adaptations must be made here, but the original essence wouldn't be changed.) | Warlock naviron, Sir I've nothing to proof to you.
If you want to follow the path because they're of same clan to you, and you want to be a nice guy, that's with you.
If you want to debate with logic and facts, let's do it, if you want to protect your friends, go ahead, but I'm not going to take it any futher with you.
gmt325gh, Agreed, the higher FSL better for chaos build on PvE, that's a bit freaking obvious don't you think? | When u have 0 FSL main faction is never used by any1
Eg.. Red knight for 0 FSL same for demon and necro ...
Chaos wiz won't do much with 0 fsl without good mini artifacts...
Even if I haven't played that faction but this logic makes everything clear :) | Ur_End_Is_Here, yes that's a very correctly afirmation indeed.
But why you're assuming he/she will stay with FSL 0 forever? | I didn't assume or say he will stay 0 FSL forever :/
Till he reaches to FSL 3 or something close he can switch...
From 0 to that much he is better to stay as alt | Message to the Devs : Please leave some time to the players to understand the class weaknesses, it looks stronger only because people haven't studied it, yet! Old wizard had become useless, please don't do the same on the new one...
Looks like it that the battlewise dominated across the board from level 13 till 16. And level 13 the minimum level to get fortune genies)
I can say say the same to you, it is already this strong when people haven't had much experience with it.
But before you say anything about us necromancers, I do agree that they have been very good at all levels since the beginning) | True for necromancer
Haven't played with battlewise but it seems easy to play compared to old wiz :p | Well, i played 2 characters as highier level wizard with low faction skill, so i have practical experience with this :).
First character was on good old .com. I changed from barbarian to wizard at lvl 10, and i can say, it wasnt easy. But i did a lot of PvP, so it helps me a lot. With "pure" PvE it would be much more pain.
Second character is my current character Gaviena. I changed from lvl 6 or 7 lvl knight (not sure here) to wizard. It was easier that on old com character, but mostly because i less played and more enrolled on .ru, so my hunts and mercenary quests were easier.
But still, if i would have opportunity play battlewise wizard, i would definitelly take him, after experience what i have now playing him. Its much easier now starting as wizard at highier combat levels.
For Angel of Death: Sorry, i dont want to be offensive, but your theories are just theorycrafting without proof and with a lot of false information. I dont want argue with you about it anymore, because looks like you have your own truth, but i want write few facts, maybe they can be usefull for other wizard players (or players who want play wizard).
I play something like hybrid battlewise, offensive talents, but high spell power. For defenses (survilurgs) i take chaos magic + dominion of fire + offensive talents. Its my point of view, opinion of other wizards are most welcome.
t1: Undermine ability is nice of course, but i definitelly cant say, that it is better than "normal" attack from gremlins in all situations. And i cant say too, that undermine is reason, why is battlewise better as chaos caster, compared to might. Theory is nice, practical use is different thing. Damage from undermine ability is 2x number of gremlins. So more gremlins in stack = more damage. But maximum debuff (bonus to spell damage) is still 25%, 1% per one gremlin unit. In theory, 25 gremlins would be enough for max debuff, or divide gremlins to more stacks. But lower number stack = lower undermine damage. Gremlins are targeted almost always as first, so undermine ability is usually greatly lowered. I dont want say, that it is useless, its far from truth, but i definitelly cant say, that its reason, why play battlewise as chaos caster. Dont forget, that battlewise wizard can have offensive talents, what greatly improve gremlins. Battle fury, archery, luck, ... Few numbers, my gremlins can do 396 damage with undermine ability, but average 600-700 damage with shoot. Sometimes with luck close to 2000 to lower defence targets ...
t2: again, grotesques are good unit in theory, but practical use is different. They are targeted soon, so you cant stay close to enemy and hope, that you will use their aura for long time. But i can say, that they can do nice damage and they have good initiative and speed, unfortunatelly lower recruit count. I use them mostly for taking retaliation and blocking, but someone can have different experience.
t3: well golems. Nice in theory again. They are awesome against chaos casters, especially NPC with not very good AI, but might factions can still kill them pretty fast. Their "Lode coated" ability will not save them. You just cant outheal focused damage. Only when enemy hero helps you :). For my might / hybrid build i dont use them. For chaos caster i would take 106 enchanted gargoyls instead of 110 golems. Again, someone else can have different experience.
t4: first, i was suprised with low recruit count for battlemagi. I expected much more :). But after some time i can say, that its enough. Battlemagi are not core unit for battlewise wizard, but still can do nice damage with good positioning (and much more with lucky shoot). Definitelly worth to recruit them.
t5: what i can say here ... Genies are core unit for battlewise wizard (especially Fortune genies). Their attack and damage is nice, but they dont have much hit points. I believe, that most players think, that number of genies is too high, but battlewise wizard | Well, my post got accidently cut off ... So continue.
t5: what i can say here ... Genies are core unit for battlewise wizard (especially Fortune genies). Their attack and damage is nice, but they dont have much hit points. I believe, that most players think, that number of genies is too high, but battlewise wizard needs them, to be competitive.
t6: Sphynx are far from useless unit, even basic one. No retaliation ability, good hit points, not bad damage. What i can say more, max recruit count for both battlewise and "classic" wizard.
t7: i dont have personal experience with titans / stormcallers, but giants are pretty good. With offensive talents can do nice damage, not bad hit points, speed and initiative. I believe, that again max recruit count for most situations. | And after Minor Tourney results have been released, what have we learned?
A) Battlewise wizards dominates lvl 13-16 VASTLY. People still don't used to them or a bit OP?? A lil' bit of both if u ask me.
B) Bye bye classic wiz, it has been good until it lasted, hope u r happy in the retirement. | My "general point of view" on battlewise wizard after some time of playing him.
First, they are "fresh wind" to wizard community and fun to play. From start i was little confused, like where are my gargoyles and where to run ... I tried few builds, mostly magic focused, but currently use hybrid build focused on offense and like it the most.
In few battles i feel, that "classic" wizard would be better, sometimes with battlewise i can do fight, what i woudnt do with classic wizard. But overall i cant say, that classic wizard is better, or battlewise wizard is better. They are just different.
I have to say, that thief guild is more fun with battlewise. Sometimes there are battles (mostly against dwarf or knight), where i could say, that i could win with classic wizard, but overall i like battlewise more for thief guild. Especially against human opponent its not auto lose, like was usually with classic wizard.
In opposite, i feel, that classic wizard is better for mine defenses (survilurgs). Battlewise is highly offensive, but cannot survive much. Enemy targets him very soon, often first, so he is good hate magnet. But dead wizard cant do his job. Its similar to elf or dark elf.
Summary.
I think, that battlewise is good designed. It brings variability to wizard class and the game overall. I believe, that battlewise will be nerfed soon (yes, he is strong, maybe too much ...), but i hope, that it will not be another extreme situation and he will not become useless. | Ur_End_Is_Here, Agreed, but you think spend 5k for something that could be quickly achived is the best way to go?
Gaviena, I never said you don't hold any experience with your faction, that's why I made some questions for you have the chance to prove your point of view and explain why your theory is right.
I asked you why might wizard is better than any other might focused faction such barbarian, step barbarian, even demon! Did you answered me? Nope.
I asked how might with such units that could be easily killed could be better than the old racial on PvE battles with pure chaos, did you answer me? Nope.
T1, you're right about some points, but you forget about one very basic thing.
A gremiliy has 9hp and normaly can be recruited more than other units, if you trade a golem for a gremilie you'll increase your total HP, which is a huge boost for your survavibility and consequently makes your harder to be finished while you could make toons of extra damage with mines and keep killing with your hero.
The second think that you forget to mention is, those talents that you mentioned advanced offensive + archery + fury cost 32 talent points.
You could easily take expert sorcery + basic erudition which makes a huge difference to your hero chaos caster. Those talents above are just a example, all depends on your CL and currently avaliable points, overall erudition supposed to be the primary talent to battlewiz cuz of racial, also destruction is cheaper for them, while sorcery is expensive, so if I would give a priority order it would be erudition, destruction then sorcery. But like I said it will depends on currently CL and tactics.
Third, are you putting those 2k damage against PvE battles or against PvP with full AP? Since you're talking about PvE only you supposed to make a math to reduce the total damage that you've lost with your hero caster with his racial skill to compensate this bonues from gremilies, that would be more fair.
You can't just say "hey, my gremilies are doing more damage on this way" because you've lost a lot with your hero for itself, for a boost of what? 180% INSIDE your range? And when they die as you said, what you gonna do next?
While chaos wizard, as long you've mana you always had a chance of winning the PvE battle.
t2, all depends on situation my dear, if you could run forward and safe to put a killing aura on a unit, that you'll problay do 1 hit kill with your hero, go for it, if you can't don't go for it. All depends on situation and tactics, I can't say always charge with your grotesques as you can't assume I said that. This is a strategy game after all, not a shooting game.
t3, you're right about golems. BUT I NEVER SAID THEY'RE IMMORTAL, I SAID THEY'RE BETTER BEIGN ON CORNER HIDDING THAN RUNNING FORWARD! There's a huge difference between what I said, and what you said I've said.
Also they could live a little bit longer than other golem. But in the end, they must be protected at ALL cost. (if they're a important part of your settlement, tactics remember?)
t4, definitely agree with you. But it does cost a lot of settlement HP, don't you agree with me?
t5, yes, they're the best unit for might wizards no doubt.
One thing I must agree with you, your behavior of "I'm superior, and I know everything, anything said that goes against my opinion is wrong" doesn't seems a productive way to debate, and if you keep with this behavior, I'm not going forward either. | t6 needs more initiative, without upgrade they aren't that productive.
With chaos caster you get that so wanted initiative bonues, isn't a "OMG this is so freaking faster, it did improve my unit 1000%" but helps a little bit.
t7, if you're might and your enemy has a better range than you, he'll wait for you on his field, waiting any mistake from your part. While if they've a worse range and are forced to go against you, 2 thinks can happens.
1 - they block your titans, and then you could use his special abillity that you can make some damage without take retalation. (alt titan has a different special skill)
2 - you'll make a good wall if possible or he'll make a mistake and put a unit inside your titan range, so you'll shoot with double damage.
If case 1 happens, your special abilitiy won't be very interesting, cuz you could do much more damage with your melee hit, but at same time you'll take retalation back.
If case 2 happens it will be much more userful beign a might build, but we've to assume might battlewiz range > than all other factions range. Which is hardly to believe.
I'm not gonna discuss your personal opinion about wiz, cuz they're yours, and overall I agree with most parts except from battlewiz might > battlewiz chaos. | I agree with most parts except from battlewiz might > battlewiz chaos.
Well, all the battlewiz players who took medal from lvls 13-14 are pure might, and from lvl 15-16 are might too with 23-25 sp + dominion of fire to lower defense, so heavy damage is still physical...
Player banned by moderator ElfPride until 2014-07-09 13:05:09 // FR#1.7//Additional characters aren't allowed to post in main forum | | For ST might is better. | For Minor Tourney it seems like might is better too.
I suppose chaos is better in hunts & mg because of the bonus, with exceptions for anti-caster creatures. And if you go chaos, maybe normal wiz is better because it's troops are more resistant.
So as far as I saw, battlewiz is usually better might. And if it goes full might, his racial ability is pretty useless :|. | the general case i think for comparing battlewise (hybrid or might) and classic chaos wiz is this:
chaos wiz has always been very good in group battles (3v3, and to some lesser degree 2v2), be it pvp or survilog. but, in general they have been weak in 1v1 scenarios (except for hunts and mg where the magic multiplier has effect).
the new battlewise class is the exact opposite. no matter if it's might, hybrid or even chaos, it is geared towards kicking butt in duels. but, in group and team scenarios it's barely just mediocre (i'd say weak but i'm not sure since there isn't enough statistics on it), the reason for this is that without the garg HP tank as well as relatively low def it won't survive long; also, because he is a threat due to its high damage output, both human players as well as the AI will prefer to target him first, which makes them weak in group scenarios. | | @438:players complain also too much battle wiz prize winner in mix tourney | For Angel of Death:
I have never said, that i am superior or something ... Tell me when.
Fact is, that my opinion is based on practical use and your is pure theory. It can be different and it is. I only said, that i will not argue with you anymore, because you have your own truth and i probably cannot change it. But as you can see, i continue in discussion :).
Original "problem" was about lvl 7 wizard with faction level 0 and only PvE fights. So i wrote my opinion about lvl 7 wizard with fl 0 and PvE focused. You started general discussion what is better. But ok, this is topic about wizard, so be it.
I didnt know, that your 2 questions are for me, but i can answer it. They are little out of topic and dont have something similar with original question, but ok.
So first question:
Why might wizard is better than any other might focused faction such barbarian, step barbarian, even demon ?
Answer.
First i have to say, that it is stupid question (sorry about this). Our discussion was about might wizard vs caster wizard and you are asking this question ... You can hardly compare "pure" might factions like barbarian or tribal with wizard. I have not said, that they are better (again discussion might vs caster wizard), but yes, might wizard is equal to others "might" faction. Look at results of the last minor tournament and you have your answer. Battlewise wizard have got nerf today, so we will see in future. But i played might barbarian, tribal, demon, elf, dark elf, ... and i can say, that battlewise wizard focused on might is equal to other might factions. For some types of fights better, for some worse (like every other faction). Just try it and you will see.
Second question:
How might with such units that could be easily killed could be better than the old racial on PvE battles with pure chaos ?
Answer.
You are comparing something really different. I dont know, why you think, that units can be easily killed. Advantage of battlewise might wizard is fast high melee + ranged damage. Genies and gremlins have good initiative and can do really nice damage. They can lower enemy number count very fast, so enemy will do lower damage with lower number of units. This is principle for all fast might factions (like dark elf with shrews), not only for wizard. Classic chaos wizard plays different, they are mostly playing defensive and try to survive as long as possible, because hero need time to do good damage.
And i have not said, that might wizard is better in general. I said, that they are fights, where mights is better, and there are fights too, where chaos caster is better. And for low faction level (like 0) is might battlewise better. |
This topic is long since last update and considered obsolete for further discussions.
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