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| Author | A vote about current "blindfold" tournament |
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Ulitmately it's up to a clan's membership what they will follow as a system of leadership. It really doesn't matter unless your members are OK with how the clan is being run or they would all leave and you wouldn't have a clan to speak of.
Some people are not confident or comfortable enough to lead alone and that is fine for those who like the democratic system or round table sort of rule. Most experiences I have had under this system have not gone well and things are hard to agree on in many cases. Also there is the issue of a vote and time it takes to move on important issues. Sometimes you need to act quickly and that round table system is not suitable for those times.
To each his own I suppose but leaders of clans look for one figure when contacting other clans on issues, not a group of players. The issue may be brought internally to the clan and discussed but from the outside, we see one man or woman who will speak for the clan and we hold that one person responsible for keeping his/her members in check. Kotrin is the unquestioned leader of WGW. It doesn't matter what your internal system is, it matters what the other clans see in their mind's eye and Kotrin is the one we approach.
Someone posted that there was nothing we could do as a group to deal with this situation and I disagree 100%. This server has two parts, admin and players and could not survive without one or the other. When or if the majority of players rise up in one voice and take their issues to admin, you CAN make a difference. There are a number of ways to do this and believe me we can make them hear us. It is up to us if we have the unity to confront them and make changes here. " But admin doesn't care what we say." I can see it now being typed. Yeah? Try 500 players suddenly not logging on for three days and see how quickly they unplug their ears. There are ways to get things done and we are willing to gather together to attempt to solve the most important issues we face. The question is, who is also willing? | Things have spun around the topic a bit here. From what I can tell here are the important points and what I believe people are trying to say.
First it started with
https://www.lordswm.com/forum_messages.php?tid=1870049
EW said they just wanted to play in the tourny and this was the only way they could. The flaw I find in this is that it was their choice to be in that MC. They have put efforts into gathering many upper level players and some of them claim that EW is the strongest MC(I've seen it in some profiles). Nothing wrong with that, but when it is suddenly a disadvantage for them the first thing they do is leave the clan.
This made in possible for more than 2 of them to enter the same battle, making it nearly impossible for them to lose any such battle. And putting all other MC at a disadvantage for those levels.
LOS brought this information forward and spoke out against it. A discussion took place where Stu tried to get EW, along with other clans, to enforce their members to play fair and not stage battles or gangbang people. Stu wanted everyone to agree to some kind of arrangement that would make it fair and fun for everyone. He was willing to take peoples word on their honor that they would do so.
No other clan leader said they were willing to do the same. Perhaps clan leaders told members to do so in clan mails but nothing was said to the rest of the community. Its not about getting credit for anything, its about standing up when it matters. Making it known where your clan stands and what is expected of its members.
Then the message came out that the restriction of only 2 clan members in one battle was removed. Thus fixing the problem EW was claiming its upper level members couldnt play because only 2 of them could join any battle. (This decision is viewed as one of the worst things to happen on this server by many people) But this fix made more problems than it solved. Now it was possible for any clan to have more than 2 members in any battle. So it was no easier and more likely to get unfair and staged battles at all levels.
It was at this time that Stu sent a message to LOS that he tried, he fought for what he thought was right and best for the server. He felt he did all he could and told us all to proceed in the tourny with caution. He never said ok we now have permission to stage battles and gang up on players. He did say to fight with honor and dignity, but not to expect it from others. He said if you continue on do it for the exp and fp, and dont expect to place high or get any prizes. He said that staging battles and ganging up on people is not against the rules in this tourny so there is no punishment for doing so, but LOS does not support or encourage this kind of behavior.
If WGW sent the message to its members that they were absolutely not to stage any battles or gang up on people then perhaps it was stated more firmly than at LOS. But if this was WGW stance it would have benefited the rest of the community to say so before the rule "fix" was announced.
I believe thats what Modi and Stu are saying. Its great to do whats right and to enforce or decide thats the way it will be done within your ranks. But its something different to point out when others are doing something that isn't right, and to stand up against it to try and change it. If other clans, and leaders, would have thrown in their support perhaps the "fix" would not have been imposed upon us.
If there was more self policing on this server we wouldnt need to rely on admin to take care of these problems. But its not good enough to just make sure you or your clan is playing right, you you should point out and stand up when you see others doing something wrong. And support when others point it out. Clans can come together to make this server what it should be, and not just allow it to be what it is. | #490 European Foreign Legion
I was in a tournament fight with 3 of them ... and there was no clear sign of any pre-agreement ... they fought honestly ... gratz to them!!! | You are all missing one very important point. With 2 people maximum from one MC per game, members of clans that have numerous people have no chance whatsoever to play the 20 games - while others from clans that have less people can easily play full amount. If clan A has x people and clan B has 4x people then player of clan A will play 4y matches and player of clan B will play y matches in the average situation. I've mentioned this before on another thread but of course noone took the time to comment or read that because it was not "convenient".
Clans can come together to make this server what it should be, and not just allow it to be what it is.
And just who will decide what the server SHOULD be? Why some people or some clans want to play gods and twist reality to their own ideal ways? The server has a set of rules decided by the admins. Whether we like the rules or not barely matters - there are only two things to keep in mind:
a) There is a special forum called Ideas and Suggestions. If someone wants to propose a change in the rules or the game in general - that's the place to go. Whether the admins read that or not I do not know ( most likely they don't pay much attention but I doubt anyone can claim that with certainty ). However that is the system to accommodate requests for changes. You can probably try to make your own revolution to enforce some changes but this game's history so far clearly shows that the revolution will simply fail. I've been around since the first few months of the server to clearly see that.
b) As long as some rules apply - we have no choice but to play by those rules. You can refuse to follow a rule but there is nothing to gain from that. Others will abuse it and take advantage of it. There are a lot of loopholes and ways to cheat with current ruleset - I do not see why cooperating in blindfold tournament ( which is clearly not "ethical" but it still allowed by the rules ) is worse than buying a meteorite shard for 500 gold from some level 5 guy that fails to see the value of the element just yet... And this is what annoys me most in this issue: Most people that complain about anything - have also done something equally "unethical" in the past - yet they try to pass up like angels that fight for everything that is right and fair.
And about the idea that server depends on admins and players - that is generally true. However admins are 5-10-20 specific people and if half of them change/stop caring server will probably die. Players on the other hand are much more numerous and if a big amount of players leave - others will come and server will proceed - and all players that decided to "make a stand" and "defy the system" will be cast into oblivion after a few months time... This game is too good to die unless admins let it die. And no rules change will kill it as long as the wonderful gameplay remains.
In all online games I have played through the years... the most successful players were the ones best able to adapt to changes. I do not see any reason / signs that this should be different. | i dont care who started to bring it to light (but thank you for that LOS)
i just care that in the end it did not really matter.
EW is number 1 in all but 1 from lvl 9 and upwards, which is clearly done by staging battles, in a legal but low kind of way.
We cant blame them as the admins did not say it was illegal, but they will always be looked down upon by the rest of the lordswm community.
Good luck with your gold, hope you think it was worth is. for me, as an elf i did not have any chance of winning anyway but to bad i got kicked out so fast by teams.
lucky the tourny is over now and hope the next one will be better( team 3vs3) or vs the computer!!!! | | Finally over.... I'm glad I managed to grab an incentive spot with complete honesty despite the bad sportsmanships going aroudn there... | Well, now that the tourney is done and dusted, here's some of my thoughts, and moments that stuck in my mind.
1) The results are out, and looking at them, I guess it comes as no surprise to anyone that one clan filled the top places for levels 9-14. Except for level 11 (where they were beaten at their own game by members of another clan), they took 1st place for all the other levels. For one level, they even took the top 6 positions, and the top 6 of 7 positions in another. They certainly are the undisputed champions in what they did... other than fighting.
2) My favorite 4 posts/quotes pertaining to this tourney are:
a) The reply from a player when I mailed him and asked why he teamed up with another player from start to finish, in one of the first battles on the very first day of the tourney:
- sorry, but we're from elite warrior playing together :)
b) From the clan leader of the above player:
i'm proud of [above player's name] that he doesn't backstabb ally to win and especially clanmate.
and same clan leader 24 hours later,
- And there's no proof that we have team up together to win this tournament either. All of this is just assumption being made by all of the players. And as for EW?
We just want to play some tournament battles, that's all. We're being accused of something we haven't done, does that make sense?
Feel free to hate us, but don't accuse us of something we haven't done, that's the bottomline.
c) believe it or not elite warriors still get teamed up on contrary to what everyone says in the forums still, teaming up together is just a way to avoid this (as it's no fun if we just don't team up and then just get ganked ourselves)
He (and his fellow clan mates) then subsequently went and ganked a host of non-teaming players to make it “no fun” for them. The very thing that he didn't enjoy and spoke out against, he personally made sure many others went through it.
And if anyone has any doubts about the utter hypocrisy of that statement, there was even 1 (or maybe more) battle where there were FIVE members from his clan (thus making any teaming from the 6th lone player impossible), and he and his clan mates still made sure that lone non-=teaming player finished last(!)
I have read many 'reasons' from players who teamed. From 'since they are doing it, we have no choice but to do it too', to 'it's not against the rules, so it's all right to team!', to 'all my clan mates are doing it, so if I don't do it, they will turn against me' etc.
For those who quoted the rules to justify their teaming actions, note this - There is a clear and distinct difference between "TEMPORARY alliance" (as stated in the rules) and 'teaming from START TO FINISH (prearranged teaming)". Anyone who understand a little English will know the difference. So please, don't interpret and twist the rules the way it is meant, to one that justify the blatant prearranged teaming action.
to be continued.. | d) These 2 posts from clan (co-)leaders who showed they are men of integrity, that leaders should lead by example, and will not stoop to a staggeringly low and selfish level just to gain an unfair (albeit MAYBE legal) advantage over many non-teaming players who just wanted a fair fight.
Leader of WGW. #24.
https://www.lordswm.com/forum_messages.php?tid=1870252&page=1
Leader of LoS. #1.
https://www.lordswm.com/forum_messages.php?tid=1870049
Lastly, lemme point out 2 players (and probably some others I missed) who, despite all the blatant teaming going on around them in their clan, refused (someone was saying no choice but to team?) to succumb to peer/clan pressure or to let the desire for some virtual incentives to rule their hearts and minds. They have both logged in for long hours during the duration of the tourney, played many non-tourney battles (showed that they did have the time to play tourney battles if they chose to), but, for whatever reason(s), didn't play a single tourney battle.
So step forward, gurumao & Straws (and others I have missed). If respect is to be earned, you 2 have certainly earned mine.
This may be a game, but how we play it generally reflects who we are in real life. If we can bend and exploit a virtual game's rules to gain an unfair advantage over others who tried to play fair, then chances are, the very same people will do so in real life too. You can't simply turn it off/on between the 2 worlds.
Quoting from what I said in another post - There's much more to how one behave than just laws/rules. Moral, integrity, pride etc, all make us the man (and women) we are. Sadly, for some, the quest for some virtual gold/property/recognition seems to over-ride any sense of morality and integrity they might have.
Lastly, in reference to the thread’s title, I’m personally glad this tourney took place. It has made me change/made up my opinion on a lot of players. Players that I, before the tourney, once had respect for, is now gone (not that I think it mattered to them an iota what my opinion of them were anyway), and players that I once had not interacted much with, have now gained my utmost respect. I believe some/many players probably share the same conclusions about other players too.
So I vote 'Yes' to the recently concluded 'blindfold' tourney. | Typo, this hsould have been the link instead -
Leader of WGW. Post #7
https://www.lordswm.com/forum_messages.php?tid=1869525&page=last
Leader of LoS. #1.
https://www.lordswm.com/forum_messages.php?tid=1870049 | DA posts here our official position about Second Blindfold Tournament.
1. Thanks to administration and to people who was involved in organization. It’s very good that it was Blindfold but not Minor, because it helps military clans to consolidate.
2. Thanks to moderators for their good work.
3. Thanks for all people who participated - there were a lot of fun on tournament.
From other side we have 2 dirty unbelievable things that happens – and both regards Elite Warriors
1. During the tournament a lot of people accused them that they played ‘staged battles’ – such accusations is ok in such tournament, but all this time they tried to cover their face by DA on forum. Hey ‘Elite’ it’s a shame – if you are so ‘Elite’ be responsible for your actions.
2. Situation on 14th level. We were surprised about cowardice of EW leaders Visao and marked_one. We think next time when you will be more like 10+ people vs 3 you will play with us.
In general we were affected with celebration on RU were a lot of our players played about 200-450 fights in 3 days. We also not complain about any clan fights in this tournament.
Next you can see the statistic.
First sheet is about number of battles of each clan
Second is about number of battles on each level where more than one player from one Military Clan was.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tT4r6tBtWYA-LmwpeCoHYuQ&output=html | This may be a game, but how we play it generally reflects who we are in real life. If we can bend and exploit a virtual game's rules to gain an unfair advantage over others who tried to play fair, then chances are, the very same people will do so in real life too. You can't simply turn it off/on between the 2 worlds.
These are really wise words indeed.... now let us all sit down for a while and contemplate how many times in our lives we have taken unfair advantage of others when we could... But I guess I am asking too much indeed... this is too hard work for someone that just wants to play a game... | Thanks Jedi for this strong words. You are truely talented to get a win even out of this bad situation. :)
About Kusika's message: Sometimes it may be better to remain silent. There were enough staged battles from a second clan too (I won't tell names, lalala), now writing such a comment makes me a bit speechless. | From other side we have 2 dirty unbelievable things that happens – and both regards Elite Warriors
1. During the tournament a lot of people accused them that they played ‘staged battles’ – such accusations is ok in such tournament, but all this time they tried to cover their face by DA on forum. Hey ‘Elite’ it’s a shame – if you are so ‘Elite’ be responsible for your actions.
Kusika -
Look at Lvl 11 results and tell us all with a straight face that DA did not do EXACTLY what you are accusing EW of. Samlonewolf was DA's winner of choice for that tournament and nearly all of his battles were fought alongside at least 3 other DA members. In a few cases, it was 4. There was also at least one battle where his clanmates clearly lost intentionally to allow his victory.
It's fine to come on here and decry the actions of EW if your hands are clean, but in this tournament, DA is guilty of exactly the same actions as EW. The scale and scope of the offense may not be as egregious, but the intent was the same. The hypocrisy is both stunning and repulsive.
3. Thanks for all people who participated - there were a lot of fun on tournament.
And a final thought... how many of DA's Lvl 11 victims had fun in the tournament? They all failed to ever place above 4th in any of samlonewolf's final 17 battles. Again, the hypocrisy of such a statement boggles the mind. | | Slynky - I didn't say that DA did not do Exactly as EW. I accused EW for other thing. Also I put here the statistic - how many each clan did this. I didn't hide any info. | | Well ... at least we (Steel Dragons) cannot be called in ... only once there were 2 of us in the same fight ... we were also lucky that we are so few clan members that we could almost always find a fight to get into without "friends" | Slynky - I didn't say that DA did not do Exactly as EW. I accused EW for other thing. Also I put here the statistic - how many each clan did this. I didn't hide any info.
I stand corrected... DA did exactly what EW did, but DA didn't hide it. So, it's ok to stage an entire tournament, including intentional losses to allow the chosen winner to take first place as long as you don't hide the fact that you're doing it? Wow... | | Your statistic about "fair play" is kind of useless, sorry. Truely there's a dominance of EW in high levels and there are many players </=10 in WGW (just two examples). So avoidance of beeing in the same battle with clan mates was in some cases kind of impossible, don't you think? | Here's a nice little set of statistics...
At Level 11, the three clans listed below had the indicated number of players participate in the tournament.
DA - 9
EW - 18
WGW - 16
So, the chances of EW or WGW having multiple members in the same battle should be roughly equal. The chance of DA having multiple members in the same battle should be about half that of either EW or WGW. Doesn't quite work out like that though. Here's how many battles each fought with at least 2 clanmates present.
DA - 52
EW - 57
WGW - 38
If you take it a step further, and drill even deeper, the results become even more surprising. Here's how many battles each had with 3 or more members present.
DA - 20
EW - 19
WGW - 6
It's quite surprising and statistically very improbable that the clan with the smallest amount of Lvl 11 participants would have the highest number of battles with 3+ clan members present. I won't draw any conclusions, I think the data speaks quite clearly for itself. | At Level 11, the three clans listed below had the indicated number of players participate in the tournament.
1) try working out total battles fought by each clan
2) we don't choose which battle we go in, the game assigns it | Easier said than done, but here's a pretty good approximation:
Total Battles per clan (Lvl 11 only)
DA: 155 (a couple players had only a few battles)
EW: 340 (again, a couple with only a few battles)
WGW: 300 (ditto)
Percentage of battles with 2 or more players:
DA: 33.5%
EW: 16.8%
WGW: 12.7%
Percentage of battles with 3 or more players:
DA: 12.9
EW: 5.5%
WGW: 2% |
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