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| Author | Mana Recovery |
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to Post 114.
What, just because some of us are sick and tired of trying to explain to you why it is fairly self evident that Mana Recovery is a Talent that was never intended for something like a Survival Tournament, in your opinion that makes you right and everyone else wrong? So if we don't continue to argue about this pointless topic, you will believe that you are correct simply because you are prepared to continue when others can see it is pointless?
From my observations of this thread some people think Mana Recovery should be reinstated and others think that it is fine the way it is.
Perhaps what we need is a comparison with other talents, particularly one that also restores mana. Compare MR to Spirit Link. To get back 1 mana through the Spirit Link Talent requires that a specific stack of creatures takes 75 damage. To get 9 mana back (enough for a raise, for example) you have to take 675 damage. This level of damage could not be remedied by the raise that you now have the mana for. Even if you take talents that reduce the cost of spells a raise would still reduce the stacks maximum HP. Admittedly Mana Recovery costs more than Spirit link, but are 2 or 3 talent points more really worth so much more?
Mana Recovery is the only talent that gives you a benefit for the state of the battlefield remaining unchanged. All others I have seen require something else to happen for a benefit to be gained. Extra damage (damage must be dealt), receive less damage (damage must be suffered), etc, etc. So when you have a battle situation that can continue on indefinitely, obviously Mana Recovery is the best talent to take.
Then again, maybe the admins are tired of having to design so very many waves of creatures, just in case someone with too much time on their hands uses Mana Recovery to go well beyond the waves they should be able to manage without it.
It doesn't really matter, as it comes down one fairly simple Forum Rule.
5.1. Administration's actions and decisions are not subject to discussion.
Maybe they will decide to change it back, maybe they won't. There's no point arguing about it. Personally I believe that it will remain non-functional in survival tournaments for as long as they are held.
Grunge | This level of damage could not be remedied by the raise that you now have the mana for. Even if you take talents that reduce the cost of spells a raise would still reduce the stacks maximum HP.
Wrong. I think there was posted a fight of a necro somewhere here that used spiritlink. He gained nearly endless mana because his vampires leached life and didn't die. He didn't have to raise them and gained mana and mana and more mana for free, while vampires dished out damage. With a unit that didn't die by retal of vamps he could gain more mana and with the killing attack gaining the lost health of the vamps back. Obviously false statement.
Admittedly Mana Recovery costs more than Spirit link, but are 2 or 3 talent points more really worth so much more?
Mana Recovery costs 14 points because you have to take sorcery with it. And 14 >> 6.
Mana Recovery is the only talent that gives you a benefit for the state of the battlefield remaining unchanged. All others I have seen require something else to happen for a benefit to be gained. Extra damage (damage must be dealt), receive less damage (damage must be suffered), etc, etc. So when you have a battle situation that can continue on indefinitely, obviously Mana Recovery is the best talent to take.
Mana Recovery results in using magic. Magic is limited to very low action rate, cuz there is only one low initiative unit (the hero) on the field that benefits of it. And aswell there are units resistant to magic, whereas there is no unit that has "I take 75% less damage from melee attacks" or so.
Then again, maybe the admins are tired of having to design so very many waves of creatures, just in case someone with too much time on their hands uses Mana Recovery to go well beyond the waves they should be able to manage without it.
How can non-acting admins be tired? They don't do much that could make them tired of anything. Aswell designing endwaves would be easy, just take a few stacks of very fast units (shrews/lizards/.../whatever) and everyone will die.
Besides the "designing" of new waves is maybe even only one short line of extra text, i doubt that anyone can get tired of that.
5.1. Administration's actions and decisions are not subject to discussion.
Hope dies last. My answer to that is: LordsWM is an non- commercial project, it is a free online service from gamers, for gamers. Every player is able to improve this free online game.
Iownyouall | Wrong. I think there was posted a fight of a necro somewhere here that used spiritlink. He gained nearly endless mana because his vampires leached life and didn't die. He didn't have to raise them and gained mana and mana and more mana for free, while vampires dished out damage. With a unit that didn't die by retal of vamps he could gain more mana and with the killing attack gaining the lost health of the vamps back. Obviously false statement.
Obviously wrong hey? I've seen the battle that was mentioned (https://www.lordswm.com/warlog.php?lt=-1&warid=18946153) and the mana was able to be gained *only* in the relatively early stages of the tournament, accumulated gradually across about a dozen instances, when the monsters weren't too dangerous. The Necro did get to about 67 Mana at most. Admittedly he used a raise spell a few times in the middle part of the match, so he probably gained as much as maybe 100 mana total The Necro then coasted the rest of the way on the Mana they had gained early on (only about another 3 instances after the first serious bouts of raising was started. With Mana Recovery, it is possible to gain as much mana as that on almost every instance. I don't think that the several dozen Mana gained through Spirit Link really compares with the literally thousands of Mana that can be and is gained thorugh Mana Recovery.
And the Basic Sorcery Talent gives a benefit of it's own, so the Mana Recovery Talent itself costs 7 Talent Points, it just has a prerequisite. Spirit Link also has a prerequisite, it's being in the Necromancer faction. Since you seem to think prerequisites are completely unimportant, perhaps you should just take Spirit Link yourself as a Wizard, as a substitute for your beloved Mana Recovery.
Magic Resistance can be offset by Magic Piercing, or by using spells that aren't affected by Magic Resistance, like Magic Punch.
Non-acting admins? Gee, then I guess the survival tournaments sprang from nowhere. That would mean that you arguing that the admins have made a mistake is incorrect. It is self-evident that the Admins have taken some recent action, you're just annoyed because they aren't behaving as your personal lackeys and implementing your every whim in the game.
Do I need to again remind you that you had a different view in the recent past? You thought that the change to remove Mana Recovery was not a problem in and of itself. You were just annoyed that you didn't find out before you wasted an attempt at the tournament. The link for that thread again - https://www.lordswm.com/forum_messages.php?tid=1871836&page=3. It appears you just like to complain, like the time you complained about the Admins assessing you a penalty? I take it you recall the thread in question, or would you like me to post a link to that one. It was most revealing, especially some of your own posts.
Grunge | No arguments anymore? I hope you (and maybe admins) are convinced now that the MR-Removal was stupid.
I always have something to say :P Not all want to hear it may be. So in your case i don't want talk about the same simple thinks that you even can't understand (as we can see above). BTW - i will not watch the forum lust for such topics. I can find more interesting things.
https://www.lordswm.com/warlog.php?warid=486525101<=-1
Killing 107 golems by attack, he won 1st place.
Just 107 golems... and? I showed battles, where hero wait much more than 107 turns. He waited for full mana. Then used it, and then agin waited. And again and again. But you don't want to see .ru battles, why? The same game, the same administration, just other community.
Last time. This talent was removed becose IT WAS NEED IN REMOVING IT FROM ST. You can speack about it, discuss it, cry about it or your variant. NOTHING will change here. Becose such topic was on .ru forum many time ago. Thousans posts, and we still here without MR on ST.
You can discuss it more, but now - without me. I see its useless to discuss something with such peoples as I_own_you_all (how pathetic means this nick... why here is no censore? ritoric)
Bye to all, i'm returning to my quests and records. | Still going on? Sigh..
I guess it can't be helped if somebody doesn't understand basic logic... | Oh guys ... its senseless to come up with endless logical arguments when the opposite side is just blinded by joy, caused by a few actions of admins.
I still won't forgive them their year of absence and ignorance though ^^
It seems that 5.1. Administration's actions and decisions are not subject to discussion. wins over LordsWM is an non- commercial project, it is a free online service from gamers, for gamers. Every player is able to improve this free online game. cuz you are hand fed by the admins.
Just forget about it, it can't be changed anyway, and have fun guys.
The person that has just a NAME that has nothing to say,
I_own_you_all | #123: Have you checked the 2nd highest score too? Or the 3rd? Because we didn't spend 2 hours on 1 fight, defending with all units and letting vampires take damage, we didn't have that much mana and didn't make it past one point, whereas that player did. It is exactly the same situation as MR because if we wanted to win, we should have done the same - defend with all troops, let vampires take dmg, use Spirit Link. Your argument about it being good to remove MR because it was necessary to win the tourney isn't, thus, correct because, as I have proven here, another faction has the same situation with one of their talents and it's not being removed.
I will give you one thing: it's not unlimited. But, then again, wizards can't raise their troops from the dead, so their fights aren't either...
The same game, the same administration, just other community.
That's the most basic mistake you (and the admins) can ever make. You are correct that it's a different community, but you're expecting the game to be identical for both communities, whereas THIS side is nowhere near equal to it's russian counterpart. Want examples? Lack of updates, no real interest from the administration in weeding out the cheaters and so on.
Also, you can't possibly assume that 2 different groups of people (with different backgrounds and upbringings) will like the same things. And this is the administration's mistake, trying to make the 2 servers equal. If they had treated this server as it is and bothered to look into what the players here want, they'd have known it's not the same as the .ru one. Because we are not russians, we are not used to dictatorships, we are not them.
So, as long as you can't show me why THIS CHANGE WAS NEEDED HERE, your argument makes little to no importance. I can say "hey, there shouldn't be any laws against shooting someone else who is on your property", but that doesn't make me right because I don't live in America, I live in another country, with different people and different views - and it's laws are made to serve those people, not the ones in America. | You do know that Wizards can raise their troops from the dead don't you? It just requires building the Level 2 Mages Guild (Combat Level 8 Wizard Castle Building). It just doesn't effect the troops that Wizards would like it to effect (ie Gargoyles, also Golems) due to limitations of Elemental and Mechanical Creature Abilities.
In some ways I agree that this particular change may not have been needed here. However some sort of change was required. The admins chose this method in an attempt to reduce the playing time required for a Wizard to be competitive. They could perhaps have designed the later waves to have exclusively fast creatures. But that could also get a little boring very fast, because you'd need to have critters with 8+ speed and good inititive to make sure the Gargs couldn't continue to escape. That doesn't give you a great variety of creatures to work with.
The point is that they perceived a need to reduce the amount of time needed to be competitive in factions that rely on heavy Magic use, because of the presence of Mana Recovery. The most obvious solution was to remove Mana Recovery itself, and that is the path they chose. Perhaps they should have gone with the high Speed and high Initiative solution instead, but most people haven't actually made a suggestion like that. They have just demanded that Mana Recovery be reinstated. Nobody was really worried about providing an alternative solution to solve the problem that caused Mana Recovery to be removed in the first place.
So, perhaps this particular change wasn't needed, but certainly *something* needed to be changed. The admins chose to remove Mana Recovery, which doesn't automatically make them wrong (as many people have claimed). It just means they were trying the most obvious solution to the problem they were trying to fix. I imagine it has had the effect that they wanted so they have left it in place. Perhaps if there had been more suggestions of alternative solutions rather than demands of "I want Mana Recovery back - just becoz i think the Admins are wrong!" something may have been done. But I imagine the threads on this issue on the russian server were no more enlightened than this one.
And don't think that redesigning the later waves will necessarily be any better. You will probably find several dedicated players achieving almost identical scores because it will become almost impossible to pass a particular instance. Enough high Speed and high initiative enemies will result in almost certain doom, probably on the same instance for most of the high achievers.
Grunge | And don't think that redesigning the later waves will necessarily be any better. You will probably find several dedicated players achieving almost identical scores because it will become almost impossible to pass a particular instance. Enough high Speed and high initiative enemies will result in almost certain doom, probably on the same instance for most of the high achievers.
Mana Recovery was removed AND they did such "endwaves", look wizard lvl 11:
https://www.lordswm.com/tournaments_hist.php?tour=11&tid=106&race=3
and lvl 10: https://www.lordswm.com/tournaments_hist.php?tour=11&tid=105&race=3
All died same wave and awards were only dependant on how many hits one was able to survive before dieing.
For higher levels its not possible to compare cuz most players there just switch factions to get a small chance of gaining some award but are not really competetive with their low skill. | There's only so many times you can use Raise Dead before your stacks get 1-shotted. As for necros, we can raise the Ghosts plenty of times and we still get a chance of shooting with them (again and again and again... and again...). Not to mention the morale penalty. So that's why I said you "can't" (should have said cannot EFFICIENTLY raise their troops); still, my mistake for not making it clear enough.
In some ways I agree that this particular change may not have been needed here.
Well, at least we agree on something, that's a start to reasoning with each other.
The point is that they perceived a need to reduce the amount of time needed to be competitive in factions that rely on heavy Magic use, because of the presence of Mana Recovery. The most obvious solution was to remove Mana Recovery itself, and that is the path they chose. Perhaps they should have gone with the high Speed and high Initiative solution instead, but most people haven't actually made a suggestion like that. They have just demanded that Mana Recovery be reinstated.
I haven't seen one "Remove Mana Recovery in Survival Tournaments" thread in the I&S part of our forum, so I will assume that you're talking about what the russian players are suggesting. For this, I have already stated before:
Don't give me the .ru server as a role model, since I couldn't care less about what happens there. I'm talking about what's being done here and no issue that affects one of these servers should directly be corrected on the other as well. Since the communities are very different from each other, so must the rules be, in order to acomodate each of them. | I appologise for double-posting, but the character count limit killed my essay :(
And don't think that redesigning the later waves will necessarily be any better. You will probably find several dedicated players achieving almost identical scores because it will become almost impossible to pass a particular instance. Enough high Speed and high initiative enemies will result in almost certain doom, probably on the same instance for most of the high achievers.
I don't see how removing Mana Recovery has changed this - it's not like right now the difference between the first 3 scores is more then 1k each. And it's the same for every faction: you use the best strategy with the best arts, you win, simple as that. There's no rule that says min-AP wearers SHOULD get a chance at winning, is there? Or, another example from the necro faction: using Skeletons instead of Skeletal Bowmen is the only way to make it to the last waves intact; if you decide to use Skeletal Bowmen, they will be targetted first (not the Vampires) and you will not be able to bring all your troops to the final wave(s). Besides, I knew I needed a lot of mana for Raise Dead later on, so I was forced to wait dozens of times with the Vampires, so they would take more damage. I don't like that I had to wait - I do have other stuff to do - but I know how much mana I stand to gain if I drag the fight as long as possible without hurting my Vampires, so I had to waste more then 1 hour for each fight just so I could get to 60+ mana when the caster wave came in this last tourney. This is the same case as the fights with Mana Recovery, so, I assume that, following the same line of thought as the MR removal, we should also see Skeletons, Spirit Link, Drain Life and whatever else makes fights longer removed from the ST. |
This topic is long since last update and considered obsolete for further discussions.
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