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| Author | Wizards faction topic |
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Let's see if I have luck correct.
Luck adds a 10% chance of doing double damage, AFTER attacks.
In effect, that's double your attack value, +2 for the damage done at attack 0.
So, if my Golems have an attack value of 13, as they will soon:
5 base
+3 Hunter's guild 3
+3 Gear
+2 Wizard's guild 4
Then +1 Luck gives me a 10% chance of a 28 attack, or an average of +1.5 per turn.
On the other hand, if I got my attack value up to 28 with Genies, then I'd be getting +30 per attack, or +3 on the average per turn.
So it looks to me like, unless I'm really hoping to get lucky, attack is the way to go. +3 luck is more expensive than +9 attack for minis. Unless I'm just trying to do ridiculous damage and have both. | Hmmm...actually, I think I have the math wrong.
The base is 20 attack, not 2 attack: 100% damage is equal to 20 attack. So if damage is doubled, it's equivalent to 2xattack+20.
That would mean at Attack 13, Luck +1 would give me a 10% chance of an attack 46, which would be equivalent to 3.3 times the attack value. And Attack 28 would become 76: or +4.8 per attack. So luck then is actually cheaper than attack, though it tends to come in bursts.
Can anybody verify for me that damage with Luck is doubled, and that it doesn't simply do extra base damage? |
The base is 20 attack, not 2 attack: 100% damage is equal to 20 attack. So if damage is doubled, it's equivalent to 2xattack+20.
absolutely wrong.
take your formula:
luck is equivalent to attack*2 +20
it means
5 attack and luck= 30 attack without luck
10 attack and luck=40 attack without luck...
now imagine you have a unit with 100-100 damages and 10 attack against a unit with 10 defense.
you deal 100 damages in normal attacks, and with luck you deal 200 damages.
due to your formula with 40 attack you should deal 200 damages too:
now calculate the damages you really deals with 40 attack:
100*(1+(40-10)*0.05)= 100*2.5=250.
it don't match with the 200 damages dealt with luck and 10 attack.
other exemple, with stronger units: 20 attack VS 20 defense (always 100-100 damages)
you still do 100 damages without luck and 200 with luck.
and if we use your formula: 20*2+20=60. 60 attack should be the same than 20 attack+luck.
calculate the damages dealt with 60 attack VS 20 defense!
100*(1+(60-20)*0.05)=100*3=300.
still dont match with luck damages, and it's not the same result than with 10 attack/def.
if damages are doubled you deal 200 instead of 100, that's all.
you can't have a mathematic fonction like the one you give: 20+2*attack.
if you really want a mathematics fonction, you must take ennemie's defense inside of the fonction:
without luck.:n*k*(1+(a-d)*0.05)
with luck:2*n*k*(1+(a-d)*0.05)
= n*k*(2+2*(a-d)*0.05)
= n*k*(1+(20*0.05)+(2a-2d)*0.05)
= n*k*(1+(2a-2d+20)*0.05)
where
n=number of your creatures
k=your creatures damages
a=your creature attack
d=ennemie's defense
with luck you change a-d by 20+2a-2d
it means 10 attack vs 8 def with luck is the same than 40 attack vs 16 def.
15 attack vs 5 def with luck is the same than 50 attack vs 10 def.
and note that this formula works only if you attack is > than ennemie's defense. otherwise there is an other formula:
without luck.:n*k/(1+(d-a)*0.05)
with luck:2*n*k/(1+(d-a)*0.05)
do the maths with this if you want the second formula. | Neat, thank you! I see, so my formula ignored defense.
n*k*(1+(a+X-d)*0.05) = n*k*(1+(2a-2d+20)*0.05)
For an addition to Attack equal to 10 points of luck would require....
a+X-d=2a-2d+20
X=a-d+20, as long as A>D.
Unfortunately, I'm having more trouble with figuring out how much one point of luck is equivalent to. It's not simply (a-d+20)/10...or is it? | you have attack increased by (a-d+20) 10% of time.
for me it's equivalent to attack increased by (a-d+20)/10 everytime. | OK, so +1 Luck costs almost exactly as much as +4 Attack, and +2 Luck costs almost exactly as much as +8 attack.
By this ratio, you should buy Luck if your attack tends to be more than 20 higher than your opponent's average defense. Maybe for some of the hunts? Certainly PVP +attack is far more valuable.
Next one is Initiative vs. Luck & Speed. For some creatures, added Initiative helps them go first on a tiebreaker, and for that you'd need Init. Otherwise...
1% Initiative allows the creature to go 1% more often.
+1 Luck allows the creature to get double damage 10% of the time.
+1 Initiative also allows you to retaliate 1% more often. But the extra attack may also get a retaliation. Let's assume for the moment that the opponent's retaliation doesn't matter- you're a shooter, or you hope to be sufficiently strategic that going faster won't give opponents more retaliation.
At that point, +1 luck seems to equal +5% Initiative, while in cost, +1 luck costs as much as +2 Initiative.
But, initiative also allows you to move 1% more often. Speed +1 depends on how fast the creature is, but it ranges from 25% further for Golems to 12.5% for the fastest creatures.
Speed +1 is equivalent to 5% Initiative in cost. So what I'm seeing is:
For a Speed 8 creature, Luck is 2.5 times as effective as Initiative for damage, and Speed is 2.5 times as effective as Initiate for speed. However, if you wanted to get luck AND speed, you'd have to make it a double art. That doubles the cost of both.
Initiative +8% is roughly equivalent to twice the cost of Initiative +5%. So for a Speed 8 unit, you could get +1 Speed and +1 Luck for the cost of +8% Initiative. So it looks to me like you're spending about a 25% premium for the extra slot and the tiebreaker.
But what if there's an additional art? | 166: its impossible to calculate what will happen on the battlefield
For a Speed 8 creature, Luck is 2.5 times as effective as Initiative for damage, and Speed is 2.5 times as effective as Initiate for speed. However, if you wanted to get luck AND speed, you'd have to make it a double art. That doubles the cost of both.
ench gargoyl with +2 speed will be good, unreachable by enemies. sometimes run away and keep hitting with hero far more better than a lucky hit | Anyhow, the third art's cost is quadrupled by using Luck + Speed, vs. Doubled using Initiative.
Using the best of Level 7, and adding Attack, we get:
Speed +1: 20 Crystal, 7380 Gold
Luck +2: 16 Wood, 16 Metal, 5872 gold
Attack +8 32 Wood 5856 Gold
Total: 20 Crystal, 64 Wood/Metal, 19108 Gold
VS.
Attack +8 16 Wood 2928 Gold
Initiative ???
Net for Initiative: 20 Crystal, 48 Wood/Metal, 16180 Gold
Divided by 2 for the double art:
10 Crystal, 24 Wood/Metal, 8,090 Gold
Luck +2 is equivalent to Initiative +10 for these purposes (ignoring opponents retaliation and going first). Speed +1 is worth Initiative +12.5% for a speed 8 creature.
But Speed 10 is only 8 mercury, 8 stone, and 4424. So for only slightly less effect, you're saving a whole lot of money.
So it looks to me like if you were planning to get both speed and luck, it would be more efficient to get initiative instead. But if you value speed a lot more than damage for the creature, or vice versa, you'd be better off with luck or speed.
I'm not sure why I'm doing this. Often in a game, one mechanic is broken compared to another. I was hoping to find, for example, that speed and luck would be cheaper than initiative. | | #166: Initiative can be thought of as increasing speed and increasing Luck. So I was comparing +1 Speed +2 Luck with what turns out to be +10% Initiative. It's true that moving more often isn't always the same as moving less often but further, you're right. |
This topic is long since last update and considered obsolete for further discussions.
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