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| Author | #153 LoS internal clan debate |
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"4. Inter-clan debates and disputes are allowed on this forum, though flaming and off-topics are still forbidden."
Per forum rules. Just a warning to all members posting in https://www.lordswm.com/forum_messages.php?tid=1862361 if you pay close attention I was banned for a message deemed as "flooding" by moderator Kotrin.
I contacted Kotrin in private about the above message to get an idea on how my post #10 was a violation of local rule 7:
"It is forbidden to flood and "bump" threads. "Bumping" here means posting any senseless message."
My message was not senseless, it had clear points. Did you make a mistake with your ban?
"Indeed, welcome all new members! We still have a few spots and BCS left. If you wish to join a tight knit group--check us out asap xD"
1. A welcome to new members (We had a few during my absence)
2. We have only a few spots left (We have a member cap)
3. We have some BCS left (also capped)
4. Emphasized the community of our "tight knit group"
If you made a mistake, then all is good, and if not, then what is your problem?
Cheers,
LS
=========================
His Reply was not very clear in my opinion, so I will share it with you all in hopes that you can perhaps explain it to me better since English is my native language and perhaps it is not Kotrin's (I forget what his background is, but rather than waste his time criss-crossing dozens of messages, why don't we try to fix this as a clan instead):
There's inevitably some personal interpretation in what is flood and what is not - and you have seen mine.
Best regards,
Kotrin
===============
What do you guys think about this? How can we avoid not flooding in our clan topic, how could I of made my message ban-proof?
I hope this conversation helps give you a better idea on how to gauge Kotrin's reaction to your own messages throughout the forum so you are not banned for 'x' amount of time. It doesn't reflect well when our own members are being banned in our own clan recruitment post while having the best of intentions.
Please remember to keep this debate constructive and civil. We must argue about everything in my message, and how to make it more appealing to moderator Kotrin since he was the one that had a problem with it. Once we reach some sort of conclusion I'll contact him again in hopes of a better explanation should he STILL not agree with our conclusions.
Since I am still too busy to figure this out on my own, I turn to you all for help, please do your best :)
Good luck to you all and thank you for your help on this matter. There isn't any other group I can count on for help with this.
Cheers,
LS | At first i want to say it is a very huge message). As far as i can see Kotrin has a personal interpretation of "flood" or "offtopic". It would be interesting to hear some examples from Kotrin of "right" messages. What i hate most is that u get ban instead of clear explanation.
There was two messages with welcoming regards), and u got banned for that))). Dont understand why either. May be Kotrin was not in a mood))). | | Well, if those points were originally listed in the thread, then it would just be reposting information already there so it could be classed as spam, and also there were already 2 messages congratulating to the new members, and you opened with "welcome all new members" which could have been interprited as 3 messages 'bumping' the thread saying basically the same thing | for lcorndogl:
He just wanted to welcome new players as he is the leader of a clan, whats so bad in that? I dont think it should be banned. | This is not the place to discuss this. If you have an issue with Kotrin's actions, either keep it between you and him and not air dirty linen or contact the admin and get them to sort it out.
Forums Rules:
1.5. Moderator's actions can be disputed by putting in an application to the game Secretary (thread link and detailed description of the application cause required). | I think the ban came following that rule :
4.3. Flashmobs on our forums are forbidden. Flashmobs are events when a player or a group of players post multiple messages of similar content in order to promote a topic, sink a different topic or provoke a moderator to lock or delete an important topic.
If you ask me, there is nothing wrong in greeting new members,
but as it's written here :
5.1. Administration's actions and decisions are not subject to discussion.
decisions ~= personal interpretations
so maybe it's better to forward the problem of unclear rules of "bumping"
as requested :
5.2. A moderator can be wrong. If you suspect he or she is, c.f. par.1.5.
1.5. Moderator's actions can be disputed by putting in an application to the game Secretary (thread link and detailed description of the application cause required).
Peace. | Local Rule
7. It is forbidden to flood and "bump" threads. "Bumping" here means posting any senseless message.
I agree with Takesister, this is not the place to discuss Kotrin's action and the best way to deal with it is putting an application to Secretary.
But I think we may discuss the #7 forum rule to have better understanding / standard among us of what should be categorized as "senseless message".
IMO, what can be categorized as "bumping" or "senseless message" in clan forum are:
1. up <-- (this is definitely bumping)
2. ^^ <-- (idem)
3. any emoticons message only
4. meaningless words eg: hfhgsdahgfjhgfshfkgf
5. message like : we are waiting... join us... etc.
What should not be categorized as bumping or senseless is:
(As long as it gives information):
1. welcoming new member <-- this gives information that the clan is growing
2. any posting to inform something about clan activities | Some words in defence for Limu that he just not welcome new members, he also said abot few free BCS still left - and that was quite informational for potential members.
5.1. Administration's actions and decisions are not subject to discussion.
I think it doesnt concern us because Kotrin is not Administration.
1.5. Moderator's actions can be disputed by putting in an application to the game Secretary (thread link and detailed description of the application cause required).
Comon guys - we dont dispute it now, what we want to do is just give a right explanation - why Limu got banned for quite usual and even informational message. So he can later ask the right questions to Kotrin. | | [Post deleted by moderator cepruyc // Off-topic] | He just wanted to welcome new players as he is the leader of a clan, whats so bad in that? I dont think it should be banned.
2 out of the 3 posts previous to his were welcoming the same member
then there was another welcoming post, then limus message started welcoming new members, that's all I'm saying, and asking for an interpritation of why he was banned, this is quite likely to be one of the interpritations.
[quote=Lamorak]4.3. Flashmobs on our forums are forbidden. Flashmobs are events when a player or a group of players post multiple messages of similar content in order to promote a topic, sink a different topic or provoke a moderator to lock or delete an important topic. | 4. Inter-clan debates and disputes are allowed on this forum, though flaming and off-topics are still forbidden.
for lcorndogl:
What is it about inter-clan that you don't understand? You are from our rival clan WG who also happens to be run by Kotrin. This is an LOS debate and reading your opinion while you reside in WG has no cred here. I would say inter-clan means LOS only! | | I thas been suggested to me by another mod to write to cepruyc with our complaints. Let's do it. | I think that perhaps what we need here is a clearer guide as to what is or isn't a rule 7 violation.
In this case I don't think that the problem is greeting new players as this has happened since in other clan threads and didn't result in a ban. See the links below -
https://www.lordswm.com/forum_messages.php?tid=1853124&page=21
https://www.lordswm.com/forum_messages.php?tid=1862272&page=1
I think the key to the new rule interpretation is the ban that can be found here -
https://www.lordswm.com/forum_messages.php?tid=1855200
I think the message the bans are giving is that the Clan threads are for official Clan notices. Any Clan notice that is flawed can be rectified when the Clan thread reaches a new page, as reposting may be regarded as flooding or bumping. It is not necessary to "officially" greet a new player more than once. While this may be a social thing to do, one official greeting should be sufficient, otherwise it may be treated as flooding or bumping. If further greetings are desired, they can be offered to the new member by PM or in chat.
The thing that we probably need is confirmation or correction on this point. It's all well and good for me (or anyone for that matter) trying to guess how the rules are interpreted, but the interpretation that matters is the one made by the person(s) that are enforcing the rules.
Perhaps rule 7 can be expanded with a more complete definition of what constitutes flooding or bumping, in a similar fashion to h4nds effort in post #7.
Have Fun
Grunge | Hi Modi,
Inter-Clan means "between" clan. I imagine you are thinking of Intra-Clan which means "within" clan.
So this discussion is certainly not intended for LoS only. Everyone should feel free to contribute to this conversation.
Grunge | for lcorndogl:
What is it about inter-clan that you don't understand? You are from our rival clan WG who also happens to be run by Kotrin. This is an LOS debate and reading your opinion while you reside in WG has no cred here. I would say inter-clan means LOS only!
Inter-clan means between clans | Hi Modi,
Inter-Clan means "between" clan. I imagine you are thinking of Intra-Clan which means "within" clan.
So this discussion is certainly not intended for LoS only. Everyone should feel free to contribute to this conversation.
Grunge
Yep, ya got me there but of course it still doesn't cure the obvious bias from that particular poster who seems to dog Limu's threads at every turn. We have noticed it. The greater problem if I posted it here would lock the thread and that is why it is useless to discuss this topic. As you can read, we were told to take it to the Secretary, knowing nothing will be done to fix things. The Secretary should be the appeals court in these situations but they seem to be on permanent recess, allowing the abuse to continue. | for lcorndogl:
Inter-clan means between clans
Correct, as in "staged battles" between friends, right? | of, relating to, or occurring on the inside of an organized structure (as a club, company, or state) <internal affairs>
Inside the clan. While the rule states inter clan debate, between clans, this thread says "internal clan debate", meaning within the clan itself. | For a start:
1) limus asked for an explanation of how Kotrin COULD have interpritated his post to be ban worthy, obviously I'm going to try and answer that, which I did.
2) If it states internal clan debate or not, wrong forum for it don't you think?
I'm sure LoS has off-game forums of their own they could use
3) Any previous offences I may or may not have commited are off-topic and not related to the thread in any way.
4) If people aren't willing to discuss reasons why it MAY have been possible for him to have been banned for it, then this is obviously made to be turned into a thread just to bash Kotrin.
and with that I will no longer post in this thread | although this is your internal clan debate, i will say what i have to say. and i come in peace. i will just try to rationalize mod's behavior :)
i noticed that in last few or perhaps several weeks, LOS thread was always the first one in clan section because of bumping. and i thought, that it wasn't fair toward other clans that are not so fanatic about advertisement as you are. my clan doesn't advertise, and we don't accept just anyone into the clan, so i didn't care too much about it. but i guess others were pretty pissed.
i suppose that i wasn't the only one to notice what was going on, and eventually admins found out about it as well. i actually think that these new rules are introduced in order to give a chance to other clans to be the first in clan section (and thus the only visible on forum.php page) for more than 5 minutes, before LOS thread would bump it. new rules - because of you. or else there would be war of bumping which makes no sense to admins
so in less than few hours you found a loophole. congratulate new members, write anything that does make sense or whatever.. just bump it, but not by "up" or "^".. well, be more subtle
so, for Kotrin, it's not a big difference if you write what you have to say in 1 or in 20 posts, the point is the same. other clans are never the first in clans section because of LOS. ok, that wasn't the case lately, but if he doesn't ban you for it now, you'd do it more in the future. i suppose that's the way he sees it
maybe in this particular case it was mod's mistake, but tell me that i am wrong, and tell me that you didn't plan to own clan advertisement
that's what it's all about, isn't it?
anyway, as i said i come in peace, so forgive my intrusion to your internal thread |
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