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| Author | #153 LoS internal clan debate |
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4) If people aren't willing to discuss reasons why it MAY have been possible for him to have been banned for it, then this is obviously made to be turned into a thread just to bash Kotrin.
LOS members are the ones constantly "bashed." The problem is that nobody is home to answer us. Kotrin in his own words, when responding to a player's pornographic pictures and reporting it to Empire, typed "yawn", knowing as well as the rest of us that nothing is being done. If we post evidence, the thread is conveniently locked and the wagons are circled. We have a great case but can't be heard. I do not believe you came here to be objective in any way shape or form and have reason for believing that also. | In this case I don't think that the problem is greeting new players as this has happened since in other clan threads and didn't result in a ban. See the links below -
https://www.lordswm.com/forum_messages.php?tid=1853124&page=21
https://www.lordswm.com/forum_messages.php?tid=1862272&page=1
for Korzika:
Of course we were bumping threads just like many other clans with "ups." We just happened to be way more active but is that a bad thing? So they changed the rules, fine. No more + or ups. We chose to advertise on the clan thread as a push because we have a drive for members and spaces are running out before membership is closed. We don't spam players multiple times like many other clans do with invites and what is more annoying? In the examples above, clearly the posts are more or less " junk posts" but only LOS got the ban. If after changing the rule, we have followed it and are still getting banned for what others are also doing while they do not get banned, something else is going on. We do not have any representation unlike rival clans who have power over us in certain ways. Also, other clans were topping us all the time in a bump war so do not lay this all on LOS. It takes two...and in this case it was many.
For me and others, the problem lies with the appearance of a rival clan leader coming down on us. What is good for one should be good for all. If all players are getting banned as we are for the same thing, who can argue? | I'm not in #153 LoS, so..
[off-topic]
4. Inter-clan debates and disputes are allowed on this forum, though flaming and off-topics are still forbidden.
The opening line of this thread. At first, it seemed to me that LS has just confused 'inter-' and 'internal' a little. But later What do you guys think about this? How can we avoid not flooding in our clan topic, how could I of made my message ban-proof? proved otherwise. Thus, I won't/can't take part in these particular debates but have an alternate offer instead.
Local rules have been posted recently, it just takes some time for them to 'settle down' and for community to get acquainted with. I suggest creating a thread [customary "Discussion: Clan Forum local rules", anyone?] where everyone can discuss these rules, their interpretations and uncertainties (if any) and offer improvements (if needed). Posts by h4nd and Grunge seem like a good start.
Hope to see you all there =)
for Modi:
4. Inter-clan debates and disputes are allowed on this forum, though flaming and off-topics are still forbidden.
Right now (posts 17, 18 and partly 16) you're on the road to [violating] the second part of this rule/statement. Indeed, h4nd isn't a member of #153 LoS, but he wasn't marked as an 'intruder of internal clan discussion' =)
I guess it's not what LS meant by saying Please remember to keep this debate constructive and civil.
[/off-topic] | It wasn't banned for a flashmob rule...the violation in question was clearly #7.
So rather than add further interpretion of WHAT IF HE MEANT so to speak, we should look at what I said like I asked :)
Please do not turn this into a topic about Kotrin's ruling.
I asked for you to please refer to his ruling, and turn this topic into one of WRITING what I wanted to say (ie the 4 points I brought to Kotrin's attention) in a way that would not get banned.
So please, stay on topic. I am not disagreeing with Kotrin's 'conclusion' or 'interpretation' as I clearly mentioned. I am asking for help on how to say what I wanted to say without being banned for it--ie avoiding Kotrin's future 'bad' judgements.
To do this, many of us will argue about what is the best way, this is the debate part. Again, my native tongue is English--so I expect many on the international forum to misunderstand what I say :) | for Modi:
yup, it would only be fair if others are banned as well in that case. but if that becomes usual dealing with this new type of bumping, know that you would lose the advantage you had as the most active in clan propaganda.
this is quite interesting topic for me, although i pick no sides here. still, i sympathize with LoS a little bit for personal reasons - Kratos rulez! :P | [Post deleted by moderator Takesister // No vulgarities. And my offer's still open, Modi..]
[Player banned by moderator cepruyc until 2009-08-28 05:00:00 // One day is enough, I think. He didn't mean it.] | The idea of formalizing what "bumping" means and how forum moderation should be done in clan forum is noble, but probably vain. Should such a rule be ever stated, it would immediately defeat itself, as people would know how to bump their threads while escaping penalties. Personal interpretation in moderation is inevitable, no matter how rules are written.
Yet, moderation is a power - and any power can be abused. I've been in environments where power was taken by a caste of high-end users (like Wikipedia) and I know the hell it can be. And for this very reason, I try my best to be fair. I tend to believe that I'm a decent moderator because I often receive congratulations from the very people I ban by private messages. Surprising, huh?
Claiming that I am biased against any member or any group of people is ludicrous and without proof. Claiming that one can't be a Mod because one is involved in a clan doesn't hold water either. I am leader of #145. Zyanya is treasurer of #201. Shebali is leader of #255. Skunder of #138. Pang has been leader of #111 for a long time. Cepruyc is leader of #333. And I'm not counting all clan memberships. Browsing through all clan threads will show how may people I ban - including in Warriors' Guild very own thread!!
https://www.lordswm.com/forum_messages.php?tid=1862270&page=0#231306
Oh, and since I am a Keeper as well, should I stop doing battles?
Being the most vocal and being right are two different things. This thread contains many bad things: conspiracy theories, insults, foul call each time one receives a ban, admin and mod-bashing looming under a mundane discussion, and finally, hidden promotion of a clan. This is a very example of a biased discussion riding on the edge of what is allowed here.
But let's add constructive criticism.
Here are two suggestions for every clan leader:
- If you want to make your messages ban-proof, carry new, original and actual information in your posts. As simple as that.
- If you are annoyed with moderation, why not having your own forum? There are literally thousands of free forum providers allowing a custom place for you, on an external site. There, clan members can speak freely of any subject among themselves. Even write entire pages about how evil we are, even with insults and misquoted conversations! Freedom, I tell you!
Finally, I wish to express my sympathy to *all* League of Shadows members. I have nothing against them, I write it here again. Yeah, even Modi! Many of them are also members of Warriors' Guild, by the way.
The only negative feelings I ever have are directed against cheaters, which is a completely different topic.
What a discussion for a 3-hour warning ban... Anyway, that's my first and last contribution to this thread. Other than required moderation, of course ^_^ | | An example of how to rewrite a post with the points I mentioned earlier would of been appreciated, Kotrin--and shorter too. :) | The idea of formalizing what "bumping" means and how forum moderation should be done in clan forum is noble, but probably vain. Should such a rule be ever stated, it would immediately defeat itself, as people would know how to bump their threads while escaping penalties. Personal interpretation in moderation is inevitable, no matter how rules are written.
Kotrin
How can you expect people to follow the rules if they are not spelled out. Sounds to me like limus wants to know how he could avoid future bans, thus a definition of the rule that was used to ban him. By keeping this vague bumping rule its like you are posting a sign "Don't drive fast". How are we to know what's fast.
If you are worried that a clear definition of what is not allowed will create obvious ways around the rule then I would argue that the rule is flawed. I would also think that as a mod you would want to make it clear what is and is not allowed, this would make mods jobs much easier. In my opinion by not doing this to much power is put into the mods hands and this creates feelings in others that mods are not fair in decisions.
A simple list of things considered to be bumping would solve much of this. If people find ways around this and mods feel they are abusing it just add what they are doing to the list.
It seems to me the issue is not the rule, its the fair and equal enforcement of the rule. When some people receive punishment for something but others do not it creates the feeling of corruption. Can you imagine if the AP rule was as unclear and did not state how much AP you needed to wear at each level. Now imagine if some people were allowed a low AP and others the same level were required to have much higher AP. Many people hate the AP rule, but it is fair. If a rule is going to be enforced it should be done in a fair manner. I am sure all mods strive to be fair and just. Rules that are unclear make this much more difficult. It also makes those being punished question how to obey the rules. | How sad... :((
In this community, justice will be based on "Personal interpretation" instead of a clear written rule.
According to this rule :
1.4. Moderators have a right to settle additional local rules in forum branches, if those rules do not contradict with the game rules.
I still think that it is better for moderators to make additional rule (standard) so we can have same perception of how Clan Local Rule #7 will be implemented. Without it, when judging a post...a moderator can think that it is a violation while the rest do not.
Halvspak has made a good point there in post #29.
Cepruic also made a good suggestion to have a discussion about it. | Indeed, Halvspak has touched on many key points that show that this situation is a lot more problematic than most care to think.
So indeed, in order to conform to the rules, how can my original points be conveyed?
Heck, being forced to write "new" things on the forums doesn't leave much room for much. Each time a new member joins, the clan cannot congratulate him on our own thread? Or can we congratulate him by adding some new twist to it?
"Welcome to the clan "X," Please enjoy this Pint of LoS Brew as a fair welcome."
Then another day "Welcome to the Clan "X2," please enjoy this #153 Martini as a welcoming gift." Etc?
When Moderators don't clearly define how THEY are going to be 'interpreting' rules...that is tyranny...rules are supposed to be 'fair' and applicable to everyone equally.
Still, no one has been able to say how I could of illustrated my original points (see post 1 of this thread) without being banned for it.
Cheers,
LS | | I cant see anything wrong with the original message so I am also hoping for a definition so I dont unexpectedly break the "rule" in the future. | Blaa
[Player banned by moderator Kotrin until 2009-08-28 20:56:49 // ???... flood.] | I know this game is russian influenced...but man..the "secret police" feel a lot of people are getting from this really is pretty scary.
God bless the freedom we enjoy in our clan chat--at least lol.
If anyone can come up with a way to illustrate what I said without being banned from forums, please PM me, as I am aware that many are living in fear here in the forums and wish not to be named. I will be trying my best to read the ideas on this topic as well.
All I want is a solution :) | I think, LS, that you made your point and you achieved your goal to have your clan thread bumped continuously without you or any member of your clan banned. Maybe, now, it's time to let Kotrin be less involved in this manipulation and to open a discussion related to the subject of this forum. We all know that moderators will not take part of this kind of discussion (even more, they won't touch such threads), so, if you want them to keep their impartiality, maybe you should help them by changing the subject of this discussion.
I wish you and your clan best luck!
PS: My first contact with Kotrin was bad as well, as with the most of the moderators here, but if you will ever need help in keeping your threads clean (out of spamers and flooders), you will need these moderators. Here is the "shocking" part for many of you who complain about the way this forum is being moderated: those moderators you blame now will just forget the things you've just said in this kind of threads and they will help you. So, for the sake of the future help you will receive, try to moderate your subjects. It's just a piece of advice from my own experience. ;) | CGSMCMLXXV I think you missed something important :)
My message was not blocked in this thread, this thread was created because of of a block on our recruitment thread, that I want some help with--ie so that I (or anyone else) don't get banned for what is to me a reasonably fair post.
All things need a scale. If anyone can help me find the one to refer to for reference, it would be quite handy.
Please read my post #1 for more info, and then please comment again--I like your way of thinking. We could all benefit from your opinion on this subject.
Cheers,
LS | There's inevitably some personal interpretation in what is flood and what is not - and you have seen mine.
Best regards,
Kotrin
I think he means that "everyone has their own interpretation of what is flooding and what is not - and his idea of flooding is more harsh than what your is. :( | i noticed that in last few or perhaps several weeks, LOS thread was always the first one in clan section because of bumping. and i thought, that it wasn't fair toward other clans that are not so fanatic about advertisement as you are. my clan doesn't advertise, and we don't accept just anyone into the clan, so i didn't care too much about it. but i guess others were pretty pissed.
LOS clan members are capped at 150 members...If we were fanatic about recruiting then there would be no cap. | | Finally, we can call this is a "peace in hell". :) | (this is 3 posts in 1)
Is this all because of the drunken horse tournament and warriors guild claiming it as their own?
I can't wait for the battle clan upgrade. I think there is going to be a big rivalry between LoS and WG.
I think we shoud name kotrin's ban-hammer. How about "blood-thirster" or "the eager one"? |
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