| Author | 41st Minor tournament++ |
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DE chaos is very good too especially if he targets ogre from the get go.. There is nothing barb can do if losing 10 ogre per turn.
The reason why shadow barb has such success in duels is because chaos builds are unpopular. Everyone wants to play elf and dwarf to beat the tanky guys but it doesn't quite work against barb because of positioning i.e. ogres being largely out of danger until spirit level 1-2. If chaos builds were more common, you'd be saying the same stuff about dwarves, who by the way can beat anything and their counter down with smart runes.
If shadow barb is nerf-balanced then it should take into account group battles.. so as to avoid making them trash tier there. Keep pushing it and barb will have 3 classes for name sake. One is already quite obsolete and another one in the making. |
See ^
Admins: Encourage Magic, please. :P |
The reason why shadow barb has such success in duels is because chaos builds are unpopular.
Sorted it for you:
http://lgnd.ru/mt41/balance/lvl/16/r/205/er/6/eb/1
http://lgnd.ru/mt41/balance/lvl/16/r/205/er/3/eb/1
"unpopular": out of all the classic wiz that fought shadows (43), there were 38 chaos, which is more than BW (33).
That's more true for DE, 23 chaos for 61 total but that's still a bunch and shadow has similar win against both (55/56%).
I don't know how you can defend a defense hybrid build which is stronger than rusher (DE) and chaos alike, if we consider rock/paper/scisor like "balance" then shadow beats both paper and scisors, and if we consider per faction then it has highest win rate more or less.
http://lgnd.ru/mt41/balance/lvl/16 |
| I think VV meant they are unpopular in the general scale of all factions and builds, not just factions which have an affinity for chaos. |
What is affinity for chaos? I just look at number and I see more than 50% wiz being chaos. So of course there are no destruction BW because admins took away the only good ability of golems and don't seem to care if other factions are just bad at chaos (dwarf).
Overall builds used follow a logical trend, when charmer and rusher builds were popular there were no destruction classic. Now there's a mixed pool of defense and rushers which makes it less clear cut but since BW is bad currently most people use classic.
Anyway it makes no difference to datas, shadow rocks. |
The best factions for duels are those that have good shot at pretty much every faction and build. In that way good character development both in raw stats and faction resistance coupled with good judgement as to how to play can make the difference. This is in my opinion what is good with both dwarves and shadow barbs, it is rare that they get a match up which is massively unfavourable. There are those other factions which have a complete nemesis on most builds I believe which is no hope - for example classic necro versus chaos wiz has no real hope on most builds.
Please note when I am saying this, it is in reference purely to CL16 and 17 which I have recent experience in, its validity elsewhere is questionable (plus I am human so very much may be wrong of course :)). |
for Slust:
go on. BW sucks, shadow rocks (from "datas") = Buff BW, Nerf shadow. |
BW does not suck at CL16, it is however less good than classic at CL17.
Stats always have to be looked at with care, they suggest things, but give no definitive answers.
It is making assumptions that wins and losses is dictated primarily by the faction, not for other factors. This assumption has to be made to make use of the data, but it must be recognised to not always be true. For example I just faced a shadow barb at CL17 with no cyclops upgrade, 8 knowledge and 0 spell power, that did not cast mass disruption rays even though it was the only worthwhile spell his build was set up for.
That result in the stats is not indicitive of the build as a whole, and possibly for a number of his fights. |
I never talked about BW. If you ask me nerfing dwarf would fix main BW's weakness. It's just obvious you keep advocating for your OPed shadow to stay OPed. Should we trust your own biased opinion which I proved wrong or statistics of thousands battles available to everyone?
That result in the stats is not indicitive of the build as a whole, and possibly for a number of his fights.
That's true for all factions, it adds easy wins and loss for every combination. It would only really bias the result if you consider that some factions have more players that use bad builds.
How else can you look at balance? It's not perfect but it's as good as we have. You can even filter out some of the bad builds.
http://lgnd.ru/mt41/balance/lvl/17/r/205/b/4
20 battles as defensive shadow (that should include builds with low SP and KN).
http://lgnd.ru/mt41/balance/lvl/17/r/205/b/2
The rest. |
You cannot look at it any other way, I am not suggesting otherwise, only that to remember the limitations when considering the strength of any judgements drawn.
Sometimes I feel people think they win or lose 'solely' due to build comparisons. While that does have an influence, and in some cases a very strong one, character development also plays a very strong role, and so can luck with the random start ini, or procs as well. For example if you have 2 chaos wizards fighting against each other, he who casts first is at a sizeable advantage, and that factor is purely luck (assuming they both have the same hero ini based arts).
One does not have the sample size or raw data to filter down to compare only those of equal character strength and skill to make it a fair judgement, no ones fault, just how it is. The fact that we cannot change it doesn;t mean we should not consider its potential influence on skewing data. |
Every statistics have the risk of an inherent bias. If you look at the size pool (there's more than 1.2k battle for dwarf at CL 16), that's a big pool, if you consider 30 battles per player that's more than 400 dwarves.
Even if it changes the result by a handful %, the overall win rate per faction ranges from 40% to 60% which is a 50% increase. That would take a lot of cuckoos to stretch it one way or the other.
Lastly we already had similar results from the previous MT (http://lgnd.ru/mt40/balance/lvl/16). Then there were 2700 dwarf battles and 1700 shadow battles. |
| Fair enough |
| [Post deleted by moderator Meshy // User requested] |
Now now gents, lets not be techy.
If you look at the size pool (there's more than 1.2k battle for dwarf at CL 16), that's a big pool, if you consider 30 battles per player that's more than 400 dwarves.
Forgot to question your maths, 1200/30 = 40
Now some will have only needed 15, some more, some may not have completed all their 15 battles to get a prize, as such it probably represents more like 60-80 separate people playing as dwarf, which is not such a large number. |
for Slust:
In the first place statistics are statistics. Depending on the person looking at it, same stats can lead to different interpretations. You think these statistics are coming into existence to be discovered by you?
You are the champion of statistics, tell us what suggestions you have to fix everything, because clearly the admins are totally ignorant and must be informed of your marvelous logic. Hint: try something better than the effect of "here, statistics.. barb OP" you puny wizard. Just kidding ;) |
Perhaps you have a suggestion that would make shadow barb weak in duels so they become average according to you without ruining their presence in group battles? Have a go at it, you clueless fool.
GB the kind of battles that are completely imbalanced and that does not have a guild of its own? Of course min AP is completely imbalanced. Admins introduced CG to fix these issues, don't you know?
You brought in BW.
In your dreams maybe? I said the golems are useless since the nerf. BW safely plays without the useless golems or chaos. It used to be an exotic build and now it's gone. I also acknowledged other factions were bad at chaos including dwarves that I wish were nerfed. Or do you want me to pretend that every build for every faction is equally viable?
when people say chaos it does not mean wizard only.
You should know that only 2 regularly play as chaos. The rest doesn't. It's just as the above, it makes as much sense to ask to see a destruction dwarf than it does to ask for a defense charmer. Sure, the talent trees allow for that, but it's not a good build. The day that balance will include more than just a small troop tweaks it might change, but for now it doesn't.
Anyway, you mostly ignore my point to resort to personal attacks so arguing further with you is meaningless.
Forgot to question your maths, 1200/30 = 40
Now that's embarassing :) |
Depending on the person looking at it, same stats can lead to different interpretations.
Very well, go ahead and interpret it differently. You have all the tools at hand. |
| [Post deleted by moderator Meshy // I'd suggest a rewording] |
stupid new skill comon
It has been available and common since a lot of time bro |
the more reason they fix the horse s&$$%
Player banned by moderator Meshy until 2018-09-07 17:51:35 // FR 4.4 // Masked Foul language (x2) |
