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| Author | Discussion polygon: LWM Staff - Moderators |
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Well, actually I was hoping that we could find the reasoning behind certain Moderation decisions made in the past. It certainly should not be necessary for you particularly to answer the questions. After all, those particular decisions were made in consultation with other Mods, weren't they? So there should be some Mods still holding their position that can fill us in as to the motivations. Unless the decision was taken by yourself, apparently without precedent and focusing on a particular Forum which wasn't even the worst offender for the rule in question.
If you *are* the *only* person that could answer my question, but now don't feel inclined to. Well, it makes me wonder why you only recently decided to stand down from your position as a Mod and Keeper. In fact, your resignation seems to have come mere hours after the creation of this thread. I would imagine that if you still held your position you would feel compelled to answer, as that was obviously why Arctic created this thread, so that people could query what they thought were unjust Moderation decisions and receive and accounting for doing so.
In fact, I begin to wonder if the entire point of your standing down from your previously held positions was perhaps more motivated by the fact that you would no longer be able to be held accountable for decisions you had made while a Mod.
I've seen parallels to this situation quite frequently in real life politics. A Minister or other person of high office in Government resigns their position and, as a result, can no longer be held to account as a holder of public office. It's usually the sort of thing that happens when someone has bungled their responsibilities badly, but doesn't want to have to stand up to the public scrutiny that inevitably follows.
But, of course, that can't possibly be the case here, right?
Grunge | No, it' can't possibly be the case, sorry to burst your bubble. For once, I haven't dropped this game, and still writing in this thread. Perhaps I should not be allowed to speak on behalf of moderation since I'm not a moderator anymore - I'll ultimately discover my fate along with a ban, if I'm abusing from my former position. That's what makes me odd at replying to questions regarding moderation, since I'm no part of the team anymore.
There are many reasons for my resignation, none of them related to what is being written in the earlier 15 pages of this thread (even if I let some live their wet dream that they could be THE one(s) behind Kotrin's resignation, which is plain hilarious). I've never received any pressure, warning, or anything from Arctic to resign, let alone criticize the way I was handling moderation at all. It's an entirely, personal decision, that I've weighted for months now. I have Arctic's email and discussed with him from time to time; I'm sure he's mature enough to dare raising such issues with me if he felt so, making ludicrous any claims of pressure against me. Any claim I've a lust for power or something, including the ludicrous assumption I'd have resigned to avoid answering some questions, just fells flat.
I admit, the timing is interesting and could have been an amusing way of adding some controversy - that's just an hypothesis :D
Now, as for your obsessive concern, I can answer you I acted in G&C because someone complained. But what does it change? You want the name of a player? A copy of his/her private message? And what if I deleted it, or it happened through chat? And can't Mods act on their behalf when rules are broken? The whole argument is flawed.
As for "being held accountable for decisions [I] had made while a Mod", I wonder what being held accountable means. All the bans I have given have long wore off. I'm not a mod anymore. Imagine I'm the WORST MOD EVER - so what? Should I get fined? Blocked perhaps? This obsession with witch hunting is certainly entertaining, and tells more of people indulging in it than it does about me.
Perhaps some people don't realize when it comes to move on to something else. | A person who does not make any mistakes usually makes nothing.
Nobody is perfect!
No moderator is perfect and never makes mistakes because they are only human...
So what are you guys trying to really discuss about?
Are you trying to discuss about a mod/s that made a mistake?
Come'n we are only human! we do a lot of mistakes...
Or are you trying to discuss about a mod/s that continues to make mistakes?
Because I daubt any mod now is not fulfilling his duty most of the times and would stay like that so let's just be gental on them shall we? :)
Mods like kotrin and pang are indistinuishable!
That says it all!
And for DEATHisNEAR
Don't show is things that should be indiscreet! #104 and 105 | | | (sigh...) | <Continued>
Inconsistent, inequitable and biased Moderating decisions? For the greatest part of your term as Mod and Keeper, this was definitely not the case. In fact it really is a credit to you that you were able to do your job for so long while also running WGW and WG. I doubt it will be easy to replace you in these roles, and yet it will eventually have to be done. But everyone is human, and everyone has their limit when it comes to tolerating the actions of others. I believe you exceeded your limit on this occasion, but can't quite admit that this was the case. In a similar way to the way you couldnt answer the questions posed to you until you could do so in a dramatic fashion to try and put it in the most positive light you could. It really took you 4 pages and 3 days to answer such a simple question? Especially when it has such a simple answer? Can anyone say "pausing for dramatic effect"?
IMO, the penalty applied for the G&C Topic Title fiasco says it all. Playing game with mods - congrats, you win. Is this likely to cause someone to say "You're right. Why didn;t I see it before. Using a long arrow is such a heinous crime that it deserves a penalty exceeding all but the most blatant of objectionable content.". Or is it more rightly going to cause someone to say "I got a 3-day penalty for what? Playing games? I asked and wasn't given any direction. I used shorter arrows than others that didn;t even receive a warning. How is that justified?". The answer, of course, is that such a penalty could never be justified for such a unexciting title. However, it is what you might expect from someone who is annoyed enough to use their assigned powers in ways that it probably wasn't intended. Mods and especially Keepers (who regularly deal with a string of insults) should be so far above such activity that they shouldn;t even blink twice. Yet the description says it all. The Mod descended to the level of the mob, but used powers granted for impartial use to punish the one who caused them to descend to that level. I really don;t see how such a comment could be realistically played any other way.
I guess Kotrin will have to content himself with running the largest Military clan and regular clan on the server. Life's tough.
Grunge | *PAnt* *Pant *Pant*!
That's it! I'm done! I think I;ve vented enough spleen to start coughing up blood.
I think I'll take a break from this thread for a while.
It's giving me writers cramp.
Grunge | When I was one, I felt lonely, ignored, miserable, and received lots of mud. I've checked, no angel wings sprouted from my back, I had no halo, nothin'!!!
I've been a mod for a year and half and all I got was this lousy thread :)
I don't see the point of setting up unrealistic standards for mods either. Prepare ground for further mod criticism? Meh.
Thank you, dear reader, for your patience in reaching post #307. | | Rules are meant to be broken... | | If this continues, we will reach the 5000st post faster than the flooding topic... Sad that this is causing so much commotion, Kotrin sacrificed a lot for being a moderator and he did a very good job. Everybody makes some mistakes, there are much cheaters in this server and just because somebody 'famous' made a little error, the 'press' or the other players are right on top of the scoop... Sad... | The standard Grunge said is not unreasonable. People will play games with mods. They will try to piss them off. The stupid ones, will do something so dumb that it is bannable.
The smarter ones will push the limits, but do actions that are pushing the limts, but the same as other people have done. A mod just has to rise above it.... Or ban everyone. You can't claim to know the inner workings of someone's mind, so to be fair, if you ban someone for excessive characters, everyone should be banned. | for Barbarian-Fishy:
Dont you think that in a society or community, the respect to all should be given, and the playing with games nerve shouldnt exist ?
I dont see people being smart ones when they try to push the limits of the rules and nag, annoy the authority figures. I see them as dumb as the one getting caught for it. Its unwise to try to push limits and provoke reactions from the authorities. Its causing unrest to the rest of the population and that is totally ill for the whole community.
Testing limits to rules that are clearly stated is just dumb and searching for trouble. Those that are doing so should just be ban and dealt with just like those that have broken the rules. Thats exactly the same idea theres with kids, give them 5 minutes more before they go to sleep, they will try to get 30 minutes and if you fail once, you are doomed to give them that 30 minutes. They will rule you over and thats not healthy at all. Thats exactly the example we are facing in the growing generation. Childs are master over their parents. I see it daily. | This thread disgusts me.
Not because anything any Mod has done up until this started. I have had 0 problems with the Admin's or the Mod's of this game, actually I feel that they are generally doing a good job at it.
Thou I feel that the rules might be somewhat draconic from time to time.
What makes me sick is that the administration of any organization would hang out their employees/members to get flogged like this, no mater the reason.
To me its against commonsense and lacks any evidence of good judgment.
I feel that this is pretty simple. If there is a problem with 1 or several of the Mod's (which is suggested in post #1), then take your responsibility as administration and deal with it.
Nothing "constructive" will ever come from a thread like this.
However unlikely, had I ever been Mod in this or any other game, I would have resigned at the second I saw this thread. I would never stay with an administration that refuse me the loyalty I would give them. | Is it the rules that are draconic, or does the way that they are enforced make them seem draconic?
We've seen one ex-Mod say Imagine I'm the WORST MOD EVER - so what? Should I get fined? Blocked perhaps?
Sure, so what was done isn't really worthy of a being blocked or receiving a penalty. I agree, especially after the majority of good work that was done. But, if what was done isn't worthy of a penalty, surely the application of a 3 day ban for what is really a non-infringement is the height of pettiness (penalised for arrows in a Topic Title? When other Topic Titles are obviously worse? Really?).
If you ask "Was what I did really so bad?" then surely you should consider "Were the actions that you penalised really so bad?". I believe that every Mod subconciously considers this, every time they are contemplating applying a ban. In most cases a Mod would look at what was done and think, "Is this really worth a ban? Is it really even worth a warning? Perhaps I'll just pass on by.". In a few particular cases, IMO in the heat of anger, this has been forgotten.
However unlikely, had I ever been Mod in this or any other game, I would have resigned at the second I saw this thread. Well, actually.......
Grunge | "Is it the rules that are draconic, or does the way that they are enforced make them seem draconic?"
I asume that this is directed at me....
Its the rules. And not even those applying to the forum.
"Well, actually......."
Yes, actually... Without any doubt and without being the amongst those currently "targeted". If a few can be backstabed from those who should shelter you, then all can. So in my oppinion this thread is a betreayal agains Moderators as a collective, not just the ones who is currently being under debate.
In the end, I wont be tricked into defending or attacking any of the Mod's since anything I say will be treated as being of less worth due to...
1)lack of activity
2)Only defending my own former leader.
and I dont agree with a public assault on any one person, be that with or without sanctions from the administration. | My "Well, actually....." was more directed at the fact that Kotrin, who did resign very soon after this thread was created, has stated that it certainly was not the motivation for his resignation.
And I've heard repeatedly that the Mods were just enforcing the Forum Rules as they are expected to. But everyone seems to forget that there is an important Forum Rule that seems to have been neglected.
Forum Rule 5.3 - A moderator must be impartial.
This is an important rule, but most people seem to forget that it exists. It's another rule that Moderators are *required* to enforce, just like the others. It just requires enforcement in a different fashion. Unlike most other Forum Rules, it requires the Mod to think about a penalty they are about to apply (whether a warning or anything more significant) and ask themselves "Is what I am doing fair and even-handed? Am I applying a penalty that is greater than deserved?". Etc.
Everyone else's latest Forum and Chat infringements are entirely visible on their profile, until such time as the penalty has expired. So why should any potential infringements by Mods be kept out of the public eye?
Grunge | "So why should any potential infringements by Mods be kept out of the public eye?"
Didn't say anything in that direction, but if you still fail to understand the reason to why I despite this thread, then I doubt I help you.
But simply put, it got to do with loyalty between employer and employee or the lack there of. In my world, an administration never hang out their staff for bashing, no mater how badly they have behaved. They fix that internally. | for Grunge:
Forum Rule 5.3 - A moderator must be impartial.
So if a moderator is checking 100% complains about a forum (example: Trade) but doesn't check any other message (total tread checked 10% for example).
Is he partial or impartial?
Note (before responding): the previous method (100% complains check) was indicated as impartial by someone who called some moderators action partial (more than 10 pages earlier in this same forum :D
Note2: if I don't see your answer it's because I'm not in my usual country | Response to Post #317.
Tell me, are you familiar with the CaA forums? You know the ones where players report cheaters, those using profanity in battles, etc? Why do they exist? To make the job of the admins easier when it comes to assigning penalties for rule infringements. Just because the Admins are the only ones who can apply a penalty doesn;t mean that we should limit it to 2 or 3 people when searching for those that have broken the rules.
Using a similar approach for finding flaws with previous Mod decisions that players don't agree with shouldn't really be surprising. Can you imagine how long it would take, searching for those with significant infringements and then trying to determine whether the penalties were appropriate or not. In this case the Admins would still likely have to question players to hear their side and decide whether the penalty was fair or not (especially with the Mod habit of deleting first and asking questions later). And soon enough we would have reports from players on the forums talking about how the Admins had been asking them about Mods decisions. Rumours would abound and it really wouldn't be a better situation than it is now. One of the purposes of this thread is to condense any Mod infractions so that the Admins can look into them without having to undergo the massive task of looking through the entire content of every Mod penalty ever applied.
Response to Post # 318.
Take the example of the G&C Topic Titles issue. Kotrin applied the first warning for this in early December 2009. So this issue has been on his mind for more than 4 months. Take a look at the Traders Miscellaneous forum thread title made by Djan (https://www.lordswm.com/forum_messages.php?tid=1876142). It was created on 21 February 2010, a full month before a three day ban was assigned for "overly elaborate thread titles". In that time surely Kotrin (and one would hope other Mods, although we haven't been informed of *any* other Mods that he discussed this "deplorable" situation with) should have been, at least subconciously, looking for other topics with excessive titles. I've noticed Djan's post on the top of the Traders Miscellaneous forum several times. Surely someone who's job it is to keep an eye on goings on in the forums, and who has a particular interest in the content and length of topic titles, should have noticed this when glancing at the forum list summary (which includes the titles of the current "top" threads)? And there are other examples (particularly from Djan) like this thread (https://www.lordswm.com/forum_messages.php?tid=1875351) in the Traders Leasing forum since at least 9 February 2010. Surely one or the other should have been noticed in that time? And the title in the one from the Traders Miscellaneous forum is surely worthy of a ban, if anything is. Because it *is* long enough to effect the "comfortable reading (of) the content" and "result in warping the forum structure" as required by Forum Rule 4.2. But in over a month a *very* regular visitor to the forums (dictated by his job as a Mod) didn't even notice? Surely this would have been a good enough reason to mention the issue of Topic Titles to other Mods, so that there would be more eyes watching for such infractions on the Forums, if it had been decided to be such an issue. But from all the evidence we have been presented it appears that no other Mod was made aware of the issue of Topic Title length. Certainly we have not even been advised, even in a general fashion, that Kotrin had any discussions with other Mods regarding this issue.
Grunge | | I think the overall importance of this thread is highlighted quite well by Arctic's level of contribution to it and participation in it, or even reading of it since starting it. Oh... wait... |
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