| Author | Discussion polygon: LWM Staff - Moderators |
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| Ever since my entrance to clan#266 back in October 2009, there has never been any direct collaboration/discussion with clan#10. Aside from some brief guidelines about bans and the rare heads up from Arctic how to handle questions about upcoming events (for only 2 events so far), Q&H is pretty much independent and free of moderation. The only difference I see is that after October 2009 there's a lot more locking of topics which I just contribute to the extra manpower. |
Oh well. I just imagined that there was a much more unified approach to forum moderation. Since the # 266 clan has powers to moderate in Q&H Forum, I thought they would naturally participate in any discussion on Moderating in general.
My mistake.
Grunge |
for makmak:
Queen Amanda please revise ;-)
No reason to revise. The thread was locked not deleted and therefore Sly was wrong also for putting it in his photo album. If the thread HAD been deleted, there were other options to prove the thread exist. Saying someone was right for doing the same as someone who was wrong for doing the same thing is hypocritical .Imagine someone new to the game saw that in both of thier profiles, |
for Grunge:
Q&H is pretty much a special separate forum just like the CAA and technical forums are. Only reason it may look unified is because some people are members of both clan#10 and #266. |
Response to # 284.
But the description under Clan # 266 says that Sages have Moderation rights within Q&H. So it would probably be a good idea for Sages and Mods to occasionally discuss how moderation should be applied. There is nothing people dislike more than inequitable application of the rules (which is why this thread exists).
If a Sage is dealing out punishment in Days where the Mods are dealing out punishment in hours/minutes for the same offense (or vise versa) then people will naturally ask why. And the usual response of "different Mods/different penalties, if you don't like it write to the Secretary" isn't really appreciated.
Perhaps the occasional PM discussion between the Clans with Mod powers in the various Forums wouldn't hurt?
Grunge |
While moderators are considering Grunge's question above perhaps they could also answer the following and related questions.
1.
a) When & why did MODs decide to penalise people for bumping threads in the Trade sections?
b) Was this the result of a complaint? If so what?
c) Why was this then subsequently stopped after just a few days?
2.
a) Why did MODs decide to start to penalise people for bumping threads in the Clans section?
b) I know there was a private moderators discussion about this as it resulted in a lot of forum activity and the creation of a new rule? Was this new rule the result of a complaint? If so what?
c) If not what was the reason for its intoduction?
d) Why was it the subsequently decided to stop applying this rule?
e) Who decided this?
I dont mind which Moderator(s) answer these questions but like Grunge would like an answer.
since no one else has spoken up i'll give what i know about it (briefly and without answering steps 1-2 and a-z)
top thoughts about modding (gleaned from when i was one and talking to others):
1) a mod usually has a few "most scanned through" topics they often clean up. this at least allows a few mods to stay on top of the conversations without large gaps of time posting in between them. this also means that those mods arent regularly going through every topic in every Forum and so will miss out or become 'stagnant' in that part of their duties.
2) many conversations between mods about rules occur in the private mod-hubs. there mods decide what's the most common rule-breaks of the time and what needs to be acted upon.
3) some rules are just ignored even by mods for such a long time because the situation is too large. it doesnt change the 'wrongness' of the situation so when a mod decides to finally act on that rule it is well within their powers to do so.
4) alot of suggestions come from other players who have found a rule being broken and then PM a mod. most of my mail box was of this variety. most concerns are childish or without merit, but some cause mods to take action. |
Well, we've had a few responses from various players on some of the questions asked (special thanks to Pantheon and Skunder).
Unfortunately, most of the answers that I have seen have been speculating on *possible* reasons for Mod actions.
Surely there is someone (or one would hope, multiple people?) that *knows* the actual answer to these questions?
Considering that the penalties for Topic Titles in G&C were applied exclusively by Kotrin, I imagine he should know the answers to these questions. Hopefully the decision to start applying penalties for Topic Title infringements was discussed with several Mods, so there should be others that may also *know* the answers.
The same should also be true for the questions regarding the penalties applied in the T&S threads. At least FaithBringer should know the answers for those, althoug I would once again hope that other Mods were also privy to the decision to apply penalties in this case as well.
I think that Pantheon has more than adequately answered the questions posed regarding the Bumping in Clans thread issues. Two thumbs up for Pantheon on this. Thanks again.
Grunge |
| i hate this topic is does nothing all it does is serves as place where people can bash i have no idea wat u plan to do with this topic it solves nothing nothing at all if anything it all makes things worse |
I wish kotrin didn't resign...
https://www.lordswm.com/forum_thread.php?id=125
Its completely dead now..... |
To post # 289.
Actually, I totally agree. I wish things hadn't gotten to the point where Kotrin thoght the best solution was to resign.
It's tough being a Mod. Even random posts in this thread show that newer players expect the Mods to have more influence over game processes and development than they actually do have. And when the Admins are away the Mods are the most visible presence of authority on the server. So anyone who has a complaint about the game will invariably expect the Mods to do something about it. This puts unnecessary extra pressure on the Mods that they really shouldn't have to deal with.
But Mods have powers that can affect the game experience for other players. And it's improper for them to use these powers for their own benefit or in a biased fashion (which is why Forum Rule 5.3 exists).
Personally, I think that what we really need is more presence from the Administrators. They could provide guidance and feedback to the Mods as to what is acceptable behaviour and what isn't (and to the players for that matter). They would take the extra, unnecessary pressure off the Mods shoulders, because people would try to speak to the Admins about game problems (and writing to Secretary would actually mean something).
I just wish this entire situation hadn't come to be in the first place. But Kotrin has resigned and all we can do now is wait and see when the Admins will appoint a new and (hopefully) active Keeper in his place.
Grunge |
I wish kotrin didn't resign... I agree totally and wish Kotrin had not resigned from his CaA duties and Zyanya (who has always taken her responibilites very seriously and done a great job) had not stopped looking there too.
Same as I wish that, with the exception of a few, the other MODs were not inactive also.
I thank Skunder for his post as although it does not answer any of the questions asked it does give some more understanding as to how the MODs worked.
This thread though has highlighted that a more active and representative group of MODs need to be found. Obviously it should include the current MODs who are active and have used their "powers" fairly but also others willing to take on these responsibilite.
This thread seems to have conclusively proved that a number of people abused their powers (with 2 already no longer MODs).
It is also worth noticing that 90% of the negative comments here (and in other threads) and the attempts to hide this problem from the general community by either using other threads to try and "cover it up" or by by posting wild and unfounded accusations/insults to attempt to go off-topic or distract from the threads purpose ARE all from a small number of people, who are all friends following their own objectives to cause trouble. It is nice of them to all officially join together in one new clan, https://www.lordswm.com/clan_info.php?id=7639 (who's clan profile proudly says they will not follow the game rules and who's leader mailed me saying they welcome cheats).
Unless anyone has anything more constructive to add or to answer any of the questions raised then I agree that this thread has served its purpose, run its course and should now be closed. Arctic has enough information by now to make his ruling on this. |
Thank you, DiN. Your summary of the nearly 300 posts in this thread and ruling from on high that all has been decided is very helpful. I'm certain that most of us here are far too feebleminded to draw our own conclusions on what this thread proves or disproves and what points are valid or invalid , so your wisdom is greatly appreciated. It's also great that you can speak for Arctic and state so conclusively that he has all he needs to render a decision. I'm sure he will be glad to have such a decisive and wise individual there to assist him.
It's also helpful that you have decided for all of us who are and are not to be trusted. You should really become a keeper so you can take your rightful place as the great decider of all that is fair and just. The community would greatly benefit from your immense wisdom and we could all just sit back and wait fro you to tell us right from wrong.
Keep up the great work!
/end sarcasm |
Just to write something up :)
This thread also proved that the community failed to shut down troublemakers who were instigating Mods on banning them, where the limit of the rules were in a grey area, insulting them subtlely, yet sometimes in the open, trying to put even more pressure on them to finally break them down. The community should take responsabilities in hand as well on that, since Mods have power to ban people but can't do so cause of the constant complaints of abusing their powers, the leaders of the clan who has troublemakers should make them shut down, trying to cut the unrest in the forums. I therefore declare that the guilty should be considered the community, the mods and the admin, as stated before.
The mods did their job and finally got shut down by those who crusade against them. Well I hope now the community will see that mods like Kotrin were needed to take off unrest out of the forums. |
To respond to these comments:
#292 - As was clear in my post and easy for anyone to understand. These are my opinions.
The keeper position (like the juries postion) deal exclusively with facts. Can it be proven that someone intentionally went afk. Did someone swear insult in battle chat. I am not aware of any abuses in this area and it would be very easy to see if they did occur so hardly relevant in this discussion
#293 - Although I mentioned the clan in my post. I would not suggest that any clan should be shut down.
_________________________________
As to me speaking for Arctic. I have never said this is the case. What I suggested is that with no new facts relating to the abuses of MOD powers have been posted that I felt (yes just me) that Arctic propbably had enough information available to make his decisions now as he stated in post #1
As to this post being instigated soley at my request. Arctic also had a discussion with at least one of the longer serving MODs who also felt that "Kotrin had been abusing his powers and that it was time for him to step down" (not my words). |
As to this post being instigated soley at my request. Arctic also had a discussion with at least one of the longer serving MODs who also felt that "Kotrin had been abusing his powers and that it was time for him to step down" (not my words).
Pure invention. |
I wish kotrin didn't resign... I agree totally and wish Kotrin had not resigned from his CaA duties and Zyanya (who has always taken her responibilites very seriously and done a great job) had not stopped looking there too.
What was the purpose of this topic then? Or are you sorry because he couldn't be fired before resigning?
This thread though has highlighted that a more active and representative group of MODs need to be found. Obviously it should include the current MODs who are active and have used their "powers" fairly but also others willing to take on these responsibilite.
Did you really need 15 pages worth of flaming to conclude this?
This thread seems to have conclusively proved that a number of people abused their powers (with 2 already no longer MODs).
I must have missed that one. Appart from heavy bashing, there isn't much to conclude about.
It is also worth noticing that 90% of the negative comments here (and in other threads) and the attempts to hide this problem from the general community
Seeing that despite the topic beeing moderation free, only a handfull of player posted here, my conclusion would be like, no one cares.
by posting wild and unfounded accusations/insults to attempt to go off-topic or distract from the threads purpose
I may have missed a few, but the only direct insult i saw was posted by Limustudotcom about people beeing childish, imature,...
all from a small number of people, who are all friends following their own objectives to cause trouble. It is nice of them to all officially join together in one new clan
The funny part is that it's the exact same for you!
I honestly don't want to take part on any side. The only point i really blame you about is that when you talked to Artic on skype, why the hell haven't you asked him to recruit more mods instead of such ill and useless topic?! |
In part I wish I still had my delete button - so I could get rid of my above post (286), not because I feel it is untrue or sheds light in some way, but simply because I hadn't read this forum until AFTER posting it, but [the player whose topic I quoted] asked me to reply when he happened to catch me in the chat room.
Having since read the bulk of the thread I really wish I had not taken part in this.
Whatever aim Arctic had meant with this I don't think it was achieved. It turned into just another flame thread meant to attack mods and of course the backlash from them. The same could be said of the thread opened by cepryuc, as well as the one I had opened (and countless others I'm sure). This is one of the main reasons I stepped down from my post (that and the crappy...er...non-existant support from the upper-ups, i.e. Admins).
Instead of commenting further on individual posts made one way or another, I think instead the topic needs to be regeared to something that is actually helpful for change. Overall this will require attention and time from the admins (assuming they wish to continue .com now).
If Players really want to make a difference and not just squabble amongst yourselves, my suggestions for redirecting your attention are:
1. Rules need to be rewritten and listed on a single page - not scattered on a series of nearly hidden pages and scattered throughout the forums sections. This is not fair to the Player or Mod alike. There needs to be a direct link on the character page probably in BOLD and red letters just above Inventory there so that it is found easier. Maybe a blinking message anytime a rule has been added or changed.
2. Mods' actions need to be kept in check. I have often brought up an idea to have a Mod Council (possibly 1 member from 10, 11, and Sages) which decides if an action is out of line or not with the power to act on it accordingly.
3. The admins need to grant Mods and Juries greater access to powers which allow them to do their jobs more efficiently. Whether this means granting IP checks [informative power], IP burns [disciplining power] or just hourly freezes so unruly players dont go crazy with 10 of their multis, etc, their tight-fisted grip must give a little.
4. There ought to be a valid method or organized system for players to criticize a Mod's actions. Players don't like to hear "talk to the Secretary" (who seems to be on a constant cigarette break), and Mods frankly don't feel like arguing with every player who says they were done wrong (even if a mod actually made a mistake, do you think you're the only person who feels that they aren't guilty? I mean, doesn't every person in jail say they were framed?), and they definitly dont like talking to the same players who complain about propaganda/cronizm/favortizm and the like. Possibly a new section in the Justice Forum with similar rules (dont partake if it doesnt concern you):
Complaints and Applications - Moderator Abuse and Appeals
5. The 'secret' mod-hubs should be open to all mods, not individualized. This way discussions can be open to all mods and not compartementalized.
Think that's enought for now. If you want to act like you want a change, stop arguing and name calling and start here please... |
Well, if it's entirely the fault of the community and there has been no wrongdoing on the part of the Mods, then the Mods (and former Mods) should have no problems answering the questions put to them.
I notice, in particular, that Kotrin has posted on this thread again. I would hope he has read the questions posed and can answer them.
He certainly seems able to quote other earlier posts in this thread, so he must be reading the thread on occasion. How about it Kotrin? Just in case you can't find those questions here's a copy -
Did a player complain about the length of titles in the Gratitudes and Congratulations Forum?
Did the Mod(s) simply decide it was now a problem when it hadn't been before?
Why was it decided that the Topic Title problem would start being penalised in the Gratitudes & Congratulations Thread and not some other thread (the Trades and Services threads have much longer and more elaborately adorned topic titles after all)?
Perhaps if these questions, and the ones posed by DEATHisNEAR are answered we might be able to clear the air and close this thread.
Remember that the purpose of this thread, as stated by Arctic, This topic will not fall under Forum Rule 1.5 of the forum rules, you are free to discuss moderators' actions; nevertheless, messages containing flame, foul language and other improper content will still be severely moderated.
IMO, the intent of this is to allow players to find the motivations behind previous actions made by the Mods. Under normal circumstances the Mods could (quite rightly) direct us to write to Secretary with our concerns and questions. Since Forum Rule 1.5 has been suspended for this thread it seems obvious that the Mods should be prepared to answer questions put to them about Moderation decisions. Otherwise the purpose of this thread (created by Artic) is defeated by simple inaction. It would seem that the Mods (or former Mods) being queried are quite content to continue to ignore the questions they have been posed, but are able to almost immediately jump on any and disparage any posts they can find flaw with (it took Kotrin less than 20 minutes to respond to DEATHisNEAR).
Have I been name-calling? I would simply like some of my questions answered. Surely that is well within the ability of the current and former Mods? Isn't it?
Grunge |
| no the purpose here is so u can insult mods rake up muck about them and they do a free service and all u do is insult them |
| Grunge, do you think you're up to something while constantly bringing this up? Just in case you haven't noticed, I'm not member of moderation team anymore. If that's the only thing you were after, you can well ask for this thread to be closed. |
