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| Author | Discussion polygon: LWM Staff - Moderators |
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We dont really need more rules. We just need the existing ones to be applied fairly by moderators with the creation of new ones on a whim to justify an incorrect ban.
Some people seem to be focusing on just the G&C section which is a trival part of what was an ongoing problem in various areas. Now that Kotrin is no longer a moderator a large part of this problem has already been solved.
The G&C has been functioning well since I have been playing with everyone else taking it in the spirit in which it is meant, e.g. to congratulate people for their achievements, with no problems in this topic except the one created by Kotrin.
Everyone should be allowed to have their say in any sections of the forums as long as they dont cause abuse, insult, personally attack or cause bad feelings towards other players. Obviously spam and off-topic only detract from the readability of a thread and are often used in an attempt to draw attention away from the actual purpose/content of a thread. However just because someone has a different opinion from a moderator does not justify a ban or make their comments any less valid. | | ^^ should be "without the creation of new ones" above | @179:
Yes, that's the consequence. Not that I like it, but if you want to comfort anyone, you will have to act like this.
The other way would be granting mods some mistakes, get over it and try to see the big picture.
But let's hear the victims, what consequences they wish. | I vote for a defined book of rules, so no more people could complain about Moderation.
We would even need moderators, put an 'night watch' just like in Chat. Automated ban, everything would be fine in this right world. A list of 200+ rules, managed by automated moderators, complainers could complains all they want, there would be no one to hear them and no one to care answering them.
That would be the perfect world.
A book of 200 rules should do to start with. And Im for explicitly defining each and every existing rules. like the 30% gifts, should there be a table with all the resources combinations and what is a valid 30% gift ? I think so, since people want clear and define rules. | #184 - should there be a table with all the resources combinations and what is a valid 30% gift ?
Maybe on the trasnfer page the system could automatically display your (networth & how much you can gift) so you can see before you send whether it is legal or not, and on each transfer log entry a small comment could be placed at the end showing the percentage transferred which would take out any "human" evaluation of whether the transfer falls within this or not?
i.e.
03-25-10 12:00: Transferred xxx Gold to xxxx : gift [xx% of networth]
This would remove any possibility of future complaints that someone has or has not done something illegal in their transfers? or that officials have applied an incorrect punishment. | Totally agree, but doubt it will ever come here :)
As for the others 'unclear' rules, what is your solution ? | Come on fellas, a book of rules doesnt HAVE to be the only solution you know. Discussions are much better avenues in order to determine whats right and wrong in the eyes of the public itself. The set of rules already in place are SUFFICIENT for certain cases, but might be lacking in other areas.
Thats where Mods come in. I have no qualms with ANY Mod, all has been good thus far. On the issue where rules are unseeable due to rules like 4.2 where Mod discretion is advised, a well organized discussion could be carried out to determine the standard of level of the tolerance of the certain issues, and how should punishment be dealt if any wrongdoing is found.
This however, requires Mods to be totally impartial, and best to be unaligned with any clan. It may seem unfair, but as a start such a situation would be better. As staff numbers increase and more "variety" of Mods with different opinions appear (thus a BROADER spectrum of opinions), then Mods can belong to any clans as it would eventually even up.
Now this is just my opinion on things. Nothing personal :) | | #186 - If a moderator is in doubt about whether a rule applies or not and the post is not insulting, rude or attacks another then I do not see a problem with it being left for everyone to make their own opinions. | Apologies for repost, some error occurred and I'm reposting for a more readable post.
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Come on fellas, a book of rules doesnt HAVE to be the only solution you know. Discussions are much better avenues in order to determine whats right and wrong in the eyes of the public itself. The set of rules already in place are SUFFICIENT for certain cases, but might be lacking in other areas.
Thats where Mods come in. I have no qualms with ANY Mod, all has been good thus far. On the issue where rules are unseeable due to rules like 4.2 where Mod discretion is advised, a well organized discussion could be carried out to determine the standard of level of the tolerance of the certain issues, and how should punishment be dealt if any wrongdoing is found.
This however, requires Mods to be totally impartial, and best to be unaligned with any clan. It may seem unfair, but as a start such a situation would be better. As staff numbers increase and more "variety" of Mods with different opinions appear (thus a BROADER spectrum of opinions), then Mods can belong to any clans as it would eventually even up.
Now this is just my opinion on things. Nothing personal :)
#153DEATHisNEAR
[>] [q]
188 2010-03-25 16:40:39 | for DEATHisNEAR:
If a player is in doubt of crossing the line, why would he force it ?
Common sense is to be used by all, not only the moderation team, don't you agree DiN ? | I'm not moved at all by your lame flaming attempt
apparently you are, or else you wouldn't flame back, because that's what you've done :)
unlike you, i never claimed my posts are humorous.
and i just gave the example of you being a bad moderator and disagreed that mods should be allowed to show their bad sense of humor when they ban. why? this game is a service, and we are customers. since admins failed to be perceived as good service providers, do you think mods should do the same? service provider should be POLITE. so when moderators ban, they should clarify why they do it, not act as they are supposed amuse those who read the ban message.
also, if you want to take it to a personal level, don't be a drama queen, use pm. i don't think we're interesting to others | All this talk about having to explicitly spell out each and every rule so that they can be enforced exactly is a bit much.
for Dan-Panic: #184
I know you dont really feel this way and making it look like you do only makes things worse.
Lets get real here, we are talking about 2 things.
1. The forums and posting messages. The chat channels apply also but mostly we are talking about forum posts.
2. Mods doing their job moderating.
Pretty simple, not complicated.
Lets say we have an evil Mod, issuing undeserved bans, preventing people they dont like from posting anything, shutting down threads they dont like. Lets go even further and say they create a whole new forum section (which the cant) called "Mods and their friends" where only Mods and people they invite can post messages selling their items and services. Is that fair? No. But really how much would it matter. Would it really have that big of an impact. Not in my opinion.
The fact is that even the most grievous of errors in judgment, or abuse of power, really doesnt have that much of an impact. But does that mean that we should just accept that and live with it? I dont think so. If a Mod does something wrong it should be attempted to correct it and prevent it from happening in the future. | I'm quite busy with real-life today, so I have not had time to read or write much here, which may be a good thing ;-)
I would like to chime in quickly though with a couple brief thoughts.
One fairly common request in this thread has been the clarification of existing rules. I think this is a fair request. However fair it may be though, WE cannot issue said clarification, nor can the mods and probably not Arctic. The only possible clarification must come from the original source of the rules. Only the original source knows the full intent behind the rule as it is written. Since I am assuming the original source is either Alexander or Maxim, I would further suggest that said clarification is EXTREMELY unlikely to ever materialize.
We can discuss rule clarification till we pass out from exhaustion, but I think any action on this front very unlikely and thus this portion of the discussion may be a waste of our efforts. We could write a book of rules and it would never be accepted, or we could re-write the existing rules to be more clear, neither avenue is likely to bear fruit.
Just my $0.02 on the whole clarification of rules. | Mods are players like the rest of us. They can and should have fun, joke, and enjoy the game like the rest of us. But like it or not Mods are role models, at least they should be. The rest of us should be able to look at a Mods behavior and strive to act as they do.
Unlike the rest of us Mods also have power that we dont, although it really isnt much. When using this power they should be professional. If a Mod can not issue bans or make any other decision without being rude, or insulting, then they should not be a Mod. Really whats the worst thing anyone can do to upset a Mod, call them names and insult them or their family? Be satisfied that when someone does this you get to ban them. Sarcastic or insulting remarks from the Mod should not be allowed, no matter how deserving they might be. And if a Mod does act in this way they should be relieved of their Mod duties.
Like it or not Mods need to be better behaved than regular players. Why? Because they have the power to stop others from writing things and erase what others write. But we can not do the same to them. I have seen responses from Mods that were rude, sarcastic, or belittle someone. Nothing can be done about it. If same comments were said to Mods the person would likely receive some warning or a ban. Thats not right.
As I said in post #160
I think we have to take into account the language difference. I'm not sure if we have any Mods that speak english as their first language. But I know many dont, some have told me and others I infer from their postings. Im not saying something is wrong with this, I am saying that it is easy to misunderstand and take things the wrong way when their is language differences. This goes both ways what Mods think we say and what we think they say. | Arctic can sticky thread and we have that rules laying in the forums rules
1.4. Moderators have a right to settle additional local rules in forum branches, if those rules do not contradict with the game rules.
So I think, if we want to add rules we can. We dont need Alexander nor Maxim to do so. Do we need to be exactly as .ru, I dont think so, different culture, different views, different rules, I guess. | #193
We must consider that for the most part we are on our own, admins are not going to do anything. Or at least we cant expect them to. But does this mean we have to accept things as they are? I dont think so. Right now, like it or not, we are the only ones that can do anything, and we control everything.
We dont need rule clarifications from admin. We just need to know what our Mods expect and what they are going to enforce. It doesnt matter if it comes from the rule makers or game creators, they are not here. Right now it is falling on the Mods to interpret and enforce things that are not always clearly spelled out. And they are doing the best they can. But if Mods expect us to follow what they are trying to enforce then they MUST make it clear to us, even if it is a gray area for them. Otherwise they cant expect us to know what they will or wont allow and they cant get upset when we question it.
As long as Mods make it clear how they are going to enforce the rules, and they do so fairly and across the board for everyone, then nobody can complain they are not being treated right. Anyone who tries to throw it back at the Mods saying there is no such rule has no ground to stand on because the Mods have stated what they will and wont allow and they treat everyone the same.
This would make it easier for both Mods and anyone wondering what they can and cant post. I dont understand why it needs to be a secret and Mods cant state their interpretation on rules that are not officially defined. I understand not wanting to come out and say "only 5 characters allowed" in an arrow because then people can hold you to that and use it against you or others. But that is better than having no idea at all, or guessing at what a Mod thinks is excessive. Heck even if one states that more than 10 characters is excessive, they dont need to enforce it unless it is getting out of hand. But then if they do enforce it they should do so to everyone even giving warnings to those at perhaps 8 or 9 characters, reminding people to "please keep it to 10 characters or less".
Most people, and Mods, are reasonable most of the time. Reasonable people will accept Mods decisions when they are reasonable. The people that dont accept it dont need to, but the Mods will continue to deal with them as they are now, and as they should. | | Ah, thanks for the clarification. I was not aware of rule 1.4. That definitely changes my point of view. I retract post #193 as it was based on a false assumption on my part. You'd think at my age I'd have learned not to assume ;-) | That kind of attitude shouldnt exist.
19:36:15 [tristan29][*]: oh man i am going to be banned
19:36:17 [tristan29][*]: oh man i am going to be banned
19:36:19 [tristan29][*]: oh man i am going to be banned
19:36:20 [tristan29][*]: oh man i am going to be banned
19:36:20 [Queen_Amanda][*] to tristan29: do you really want to go there ?
19:36:25 [tristan29][*]: oh man i am going to be bannedoh man i am going to be banned
19:36:28 [tristan29][*]: oh man i am going to be banned
19:36:32 [tristan29][*]: oh man i am going to be banned
19:36:35 [tristan29][*]: oh man i am going to be banned
19:36:38 [tristan29][*]: oh man i am going to be banned
19:36:41 [tristan29][*]: oh man i am going to be banned
19:36:43 [tristan29][*]: oh man i am going to be banned
19:36:46 [tristan29][*]: oh man i am going to be banned
19:36:49 [tristan29][*]: no ban yet?
19:36:59 [Dan-Panic][*] to tristan29: you do
19:37:11 [Queen_Amanda][*] to tristan29: enjoy your vacation
19:37:17 [Dan-Panic][*] to tristan29: thats a nice example of people pushing mods to the limits
So for those who really think mods arent pushed to the limit, well here a nice and sweet example of it. Thanks Tristan29. | | Oh but it got better . Logged on an unsigned multi and tried to act like we were too stupid to figure it out . Guess again . Not saying the whole community is this way Thank God it is not but this is proof it does happen . | #198
Nobody is saying that Mods are not provoked, such as your example. But when you say pushed to the limit you make it sound like they are at the end of their rope, wanting to kill someone.
As annoying as your example is, thats why we have Mods. Im sure it was rather easy for Queen_Amanda to ban tristan29. And she did so properly without insulting him. A great example of a Mod doing their job well.
What if it looked more like this (please excuse the example I dont mean to offend anyone) place your favorite cuss word in place of the #@$*
19:36:15 [tristan29][*]: oh man i am going to be banned
19:36:17 [tristan29][*]: you smelly #$%@
19:36:19 [tristan29][*]: you cant ^@%^#$@ stop me you dirty $%^@
19:36:20 [tristan29][*]: I hope you choke on a big fat @#*& and die
19:36:20 [Queen_Amanda][*] to tristan29: do you really want to go there ?
19:36:25 [tristan29][*]: oh man i am going to be bannedoh man i am going to be banned
19:36:28 [tristan29][*]: yeah I want it
19:36:32 [tristan29][*]: give it to me like you do everyone else
19:36:35 [tristan29][*]: you nasty #@$% rotten #@%^&
Certainly this is much more serious and offensive and nobody would blame Queen_Amanda for becoming upset over it. But I would argue that she should react the same way she did, of course the ban should be more severe. But all Mods should be able to do their jobs without resorting behavior similar to that which they are punishing.
There is no excuse for tristan29 or anyone acting that way, it was stupid and he deserved the ban, anyone that says otherwise is also stupid. I and other players can say this was stupid or he was stupid (and we are subject to our own ban for doing so). But Mods cant and shouldnt say he was stupid, or similar comments, regardless of how true they are. |
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