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| Author | Discussion polygon: LWM Staff - Moderators |
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Insults are only insults when they are not true.
That's a ridiculous statement and you know it. Insults are insults, period. By your logic, if the people in question were not, in fact, KIDS then your statement was an insult. Since I was one of the 7 WGW members who made 22 seperate posts before you made that statement, then it can be logically deduced that you intended to include me in your broad assessment. I am not a KID, either age or maturity wise, therefore your statement was an insult.
None of my posts have been emotional, nor have I relied on insulting anyone to make my points. I have quite pointedly taken Arctic and all his staff including Mods and Jurists to task for the handling of this situation, but I have not had to rely in insults to do so. You, however, repeatedly fall back on statements intended to imply your superiority over those you address. Comments such as "KIDS", "children", "immature", etc... If you were so sure of your superiority, you wouldn't have to rely so heavily on reminding others of it. That's just a sign of either an inferiority complex or immaturity. The truly wise rarely feel the need to highlight their own wisdom. | but to the ENTIRE CLAN of LoS (not just the posters).
which is what I was trying to tell those who were posting: they were making it a clan issue when it certainly wasnt. what made me even more agitated was that I was brought out of context as being oblivious to the issues at hand, which I was certainly not.
No one was making this a clan issue EXCEPT those who had posted insults at LOS. None of us were critical of WGW at all. At least be practical and do not turn it into an issue which we did not start, but we're being blamed for.
On the Mod issue again.
but never experienced them as power hungry baby eating machines like people make them out to be.
I do not think they are power hungry either. Yet certain actions give implications to this, which is why this thread was created: to snuff out the facts before it became a heated argument rather than a discussion. But then certain quarters threw sladerous words out targeting certain objectives. Before we knew it, all this had happened. How? Because a certain few blew things out of context.
Good day. | #141
Now you are nitpicking. Let's be super specific since you are a special case. Were you whining in your posts? I think I was referring to the whiners and LoS antagonizers...correct me if I am wrong, and I owe YOU an apology.
Further, this is a game that is enjoyed by a combination of adults and children. So I do make the distinction each time because I feel that those that pay for the server (as I am known for doing) should be taken more seriously than those that do not (often children that cannot contribute). Further, I go as far as to suggest that people that only whine and complain (because this is what children do) shouldn't waste the grown-up's times in regards to improving the server. Anyone of you ever tell your parents how to do things when you were 10 years old? 12? Kotrin had to step down as a Mod. He shouldn't of stepped down as a Keeper (that thought never came across the post of ANYONE) but that is an insight to character.
Cheers,
LS | #143
Ok, let's do be specific...
There were a total of 5 WGW posts, made by 2 WGW members, that mentioned LoS at all before your post at #61 where you stated "a bunch of KIDS from WGW". So out of 27 posts by 7 different WGW members, less than 25% of the posts from less than 33% of the WGW posters referenced LoS at all.
To be even more specific, Nutella made the LoS referencing posts at #26, 37, 46, 60. Of these, #26 and 37 were broadly addressed at LoS "guys". In posts 46 and 60, she clarified that her intent was to address Modi and DiN specifically and further stated she had no issue with the majority of LoS.
Dan-Panic made a single post about LoS at 44 that referenced Modi, DiN, and you specifically. All other WGW posts prior to your statement "a bunch of KIDS from WGW" were not at all related to LoS.
So your statement that you were only responding after aspersions were levelled against all of LoS fails to pass muster. There were broad aspersions, but they were clarified be addressed at specific LoS members prior to your post. There have since been many broad accusations, perhaps these were in response to you addressing 66%+ of the WGW members and 75%+ of WGW member posts inaccurately.
And finally, to answer your question, no I was not whining in my posts. I do not seek an apology, but perhaps the other 4 members who said nothing at all about LoS up to that point do. | #144 (Pardon any typos, multi-tasking)
The specifics were not clarifications, they were "Especially these following people." You are twisting words, and paraphrasing...pro spin-doctor.
In fact, it was off of this post #60 that I decided she had changed her post 46 stance from "non-political, don't have a problem with LoS" to the new:
"Your clan mates are no choirboys and if you followed their dispute with forum and chat mods a bit, you won't deny that they provoked many of their ban...Like this it HAD to become a "political topic.""
As for Dan-Panic...I chat with him in PM too...I know exactly where he stands, however erroneous his position may be in my opinion.
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Also your asssessment is incorrect:
Post 27 from another WGW member also makes this a "clan politics" issue, and casts both WGW and LoS in negative lights...when neither of the clans are responsible for the breakdown of "x" moderators.
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Further, the writing was clearly, "This really is a joke...the discussion is about moderator actions, and a bunch of KIDS from WGW steer right off topic." Adult's shouldn't have so much trouble staying on topic...hell...even I am veering off the main topic to a sub-topic with the last few posts, trying to centralize the whole thing back where it belongs: unfit Mods being replaced. | Focus on the main :
Discussion polygon: LWM Staff - Moderators
It s not the place for a war betwen the LOS and WGW or betwen Limus and Kotrin...
all we have now is only 2 active mods and i understand them when they stop and leave the job! So Why only 2 active now? | Exactly patrickou. We need new mods. Hopefully a little more diversity too so that people don't make objective discussions, "politically based" as someone said, or subjective in any way/shape/form.
People should be loyal to the server, not to their clans, in administrative matters. | Can we get back to the whole issue, since Limus doesnt wanna stand down and I know he isnt right so it wont end until the server close down. Its useless to continue down that path. Nutella and I have talked about LoS leaders, Limus has insulted the whole WGW posters in this very thread, even if he doesnt wanna admit it. So be it.
NEXT topic.
Moderators are doing their jobs as much as they can, with being provoked or not is not even a question we should asks ourselves, it is in every single forums I have roam since I have internet (1995). So to blame only the moderators for the whole topics is plain stupid, as I have said early.
Also, Arctic made it public, which in my humble opinion (mine and not WGW, Im not part of it anymore since last night and I got people thanking me for that, weird, anyways) so in my opinion, that only proves Arctic is unable to take a decision, nor is able to fix a problem in private with his own staff. He wants the public to lynch out the guilty, well I just hope the community is ready to throw themselves stones cause you are as guilty as the mods, and Arctic as well.
Thanks for reading this opinion as mine. (hints to some people) | It s not the place for a war betwen the LOS and WGW or betwen Limus and Kotrin...
i support.
this topic was transfigured to 'forum clan-wars', what's senseless. | | It would be real amusing to find out the admins ( not Arctic ) were actually watching this thread and laughing at everyone ! | Fair enough Dan, I'll drop it on my side barring any further provocation.
To your point, I agree on nearly all fronts. A public airing of dirty laundry was not the appropriate venue for such a situation. But if we are to have it, let's have it frankly and openly.
It was said in an earlier post by Halvspak that DiN had two choices when faced with inconsistent moderation after asking and failing to receive clarification. He could either:
-dont make posts that come close to being bannable (even though others can); or
-try to find out what will be banned and what wont
Obviously DiN selected option #2. He chose to purposely push to find out what was and was not allowed.
It seems to me that if you purposefully set out to find something, and you find it, you surrender the right to complain about finding it. If you choose to further push, repeatedly, and repeatedly find the line, you lose all credibility when complaining that the line is there.
Whether or not the line was set appropriately is an important distinction, granted. Choosing to enforce the line in the sand over some arrows seems petty on the surface, but when and if the entire posting/ban history of is viewed, I suspect that the actions of the moderator may be viewed differently.
As has been stated already, I hardly view a ban of a few minutes, or even a few days as the iron fisted tyranny that is being so casually bandied about by some. Lack of ability to post on the forum is barely game impacting at all to most players. I suspect many may not have even noticed they were banned for 5 minutes as many players post something then go off to fight in combat or play roulette or in the tavern. If it weren't for the red notification text, it would hardly matter.
This leads me to believe that the issue some people have is with authority. They cannot stand the mere thought that perhaps they made a mistake. This refusal to admit even the most minor of offenses on their part, leads them to go on a crusade to prove that the moderator was wrong in issuing even the most mundane of penalties. It's like a child, caught with his hand in the cookie jar, who insists it isn't his fault since his parents put the cookie jar within his reach. | Good post Slynky.
Especially the part of being upset that people have any form authority over them, is more antagonizing to them than the way they use there authority. | This whole WGW vs LOS thing is getting way out of control. Whos fault is it, who can we blame for it? IT DOES NOT MATTER!! All of the insults and arguments about it are a waste of time and energy.
Be objective and realize how we ended up here. The first post to mention LOS is #26. Nothing terrible here but does place blame on LOS.
First post to mention WGW is #30. Says nothing bad about WGW tries to steer thread back on topic.
#37 Goes right back after LOS getting more specific with those she has a problem with.
#43 again asks to not make it clan related, because it has nothing to do with clan.
#44 points out who he personally has problems with.
#45 again tries to steer it away from clans and back on topic.
#46 almost apologizes, states opinion more clearly and is more on topic.
#47-49 contributes nothing to the discussion but negativity or accusations.
#50 and 51 again politely asks people to be adults and stay on topic.
#55 states its not about LOS or WGW tries to bring back to topic.
#60 brings it back to LOS vs WGW and implies its Mods vs those on juries.
#61 First post saying anything bad about WGW, comments are worse than others said about LOS. Some of his remarks are in response to prior comments made directly at him.
#65 tries to steer away from clans and back to topic.
From this point on some posts are on topic and some are not, some directly insult or blame individuals and some do it to clans or a clan. It really doesnt matter that that mainly 1 WGW member made it a WGW vs LOS issue, or that mainly 1 LOS member repeatedly tried to bring it back on topic, or that a few WGW members were a little offensive towards LOS or its members, or that 1 LOS member was flat out rude to WGW that posted comments.
Bottom line, regardless of who started it, who made more negative comments, or who said the worst things. BOTH SIDES are to blame. But this has never been a WGW vs LOS issue despite what anyone thinks, nor is it a Mods vs Juries or any other clan based argument.
This topic was to be about Mods and abuse of power. Read post #1! | On the point of consistency, which has been raised in this thread many times...
Consistency is good, but it does not necessarily mean that every offense by different people is always treated the same. Individual judgment based on prior track record of the individual committing the offense is also important. Minus the judgment portion of the equation, there are ridiculous situations that can arise. A good example from real-life news:
A 5 year old girl is expelled from school and arrested by police because she brought a birthday cake to school with a plastic cake knife inside the cake container for the teacher to cut the cake. The school had a zero-tolerance policy where all "weapon" offenses were to be treated identically.
There is a large difference between a 5 year old girl bringing a plastic cake knife to school and a 17 year old boy bringing a switchblade knife to school, yet they are classified the same and punished the same under a truly "consistent" system. Is this fair? Is this what we want?
I would argue that moderators should be chosen based on their ability to exercise good judgment. Anyone can enforce a consistent, zero tolerance approach, it's as simple as reading from a script. A talented and valuable moderator will review each case, based on the individual offense and the track record of prior offenses of the individual and make a punishment decision based on the combination of these two things.
This may mean that Player A with 15 previous bans gets a 3 day ban for posting obscene language, while Player B, a new player with no prior bans, gets a 5 minute warning, and Player C, an established player who has been here for a year with no bans ever, gets a PM from the mod asking him to watch his language. On the surface, this would appear inconsistent to an outsider, since we are unable to see ban records, but is it unfair?
If you answer yes, then you are asking for a zero-tolerance approach and I ask again, is this what we want or need as a community? | #153
It my opinion the topic was starting to get back on track, but then your post seems like an attempt to start it up again?
Concerning the allegations of MOD abusing there so called powers.
I think we should have a more broad survey, or non at all.
The way it seems now is that there are very few who are upset.
But in all due respect, unless we find more than a handfull or two who thinks its terrible then maybe the problem is with the mods.
Until then I think we should refrain from allegations (like calling the MOD power hungry, abusive etc.) without further proof. Just tell your story and tell if you think you have been treated fair/unfair | #153
Hmm...when I started writing that we were at post #144, then I got delayed with phone calls and RL. Seems things have gotten much more civil since then and I dont want my post #153 to detract from that. Lets continue on in a civil tone. | | @153
No dispute at all with any of your facts. You have laid them out clearly and portrayed them fairly.
As I told Dan, I have backed off and will stick to the topic at hand in this thread. See my post at #154 for my more general thoughts on moderation approaches. | Oh i also forgot to mention that mods should review the forum chat and general rules frequently, along with all the read me firsts and sticky notes.
(Because every now and then they make a mistake for whatever reason. A mod should not have to memorize all the rules, but they should be forced to try =D)
(P.s i totally new i left something out! p.s.s i miss kotrin. p.s.s.s yes even though i have been temp banned by him before.) | I would like to point out something I realized last night that may have some implications to how people view Mods.
It seems to me that many of the Mods we have or have had do not speak english as their first language. This can give way to misunderstanding or not being able to communicate clearly. Being a Mod can certainly be a difficult job and most often not fun. But they should always be respectful in all communications to everyone. Even when banning people who may have personally insulted them.
Sometimes I think that the tone of a message from a Mod comes off as rude or insulting, not on purpose but because of language differences.
But I know there are times when a Mod responds to comments made that are just as rude, insulting or offensive as the comments the Mod is issuing the ban for. This should not be allowed. How can a person who is in charge of enforcing what what can or cant be said be allowed to name call or degrade those whom they are penalizing for doing the same thing, often in the message stating their ban. If you are a Mod you should rise above all negative comments, even those said at you. Im not saying Mods cant defend themselves, but they have the power to ban from forums and chat. When they give somebody a ban it should not call a person stupid, ignorant, childish, or any other such name, no matter how true it might be. |
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