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| Author | Losing battles intentionally should be stopped |
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additionally to this punishment getting experience would be too hard punishment
this is the main problem of this game: XP is a malus, not bonus.
i don't know any other game where you took XP as a penality.
lots of problems we have like this one with intentionnaly losers are consequences of the main one: XP must be a bonus, not a malus like it's actually.
we have FSP, hunter guilds, mercenary guild, labourer guild, thief guild...and we only look at combat level to determine our opponents on fights.
a fight between combat level5 and combat level6 is considered "unfair"
a fight between combat level5 FSP3 HG2 LG1 and level5 FSP8 HG2 LG5 is considered "fair"
it's nonsense, and it explains why lots of fights in this game unbalanced.
it would be a good thing for the game to organise events where XP isn't a malus:
for exemple a tournament with these categories:
50-100 battles
100-200 battles
200-300 battles
300-500 battles
500-750 battles
750-1000 battles
1000-1500 battles
1500-2000 battles
2000+ battles
or in top hunters, a new classement: we keep the actual one, by level, and we make a new one, by battles.
best hunter with less than 50 battles
best hunter with 50-100 battles...
we can find lots of others idea to valorize XP.
anyway, we must do something, XP can't remain a malus. | we don't want losers to be strong, and winners to be weak.
we want a game where you can really play (and playing means try to win of course. nobody plays with intention to lose)
you want too much.
Its like in real life, these "losers" take more time, and winners just dont, they are lazy. | really i think by this post you have revealed a interesting issue on the game which is "faction skill points are more important than combat level"
but what will happen now ?
on my side, from your post, if I have a "red or purple hunt" i ll go alone rather than ask for help, as it will give me more skill point if I loose alone than if I ask for help and win.
now, what the dev can do ?
i see one or two things :
- Put a cap to the skill level so it should not exceed... one more than combat level. (try to have a faction level of 6 at level 5, rather hard)
- make hunt easier to acheive, i am quite bored when I saw five or more "red hunt" in a row. (but may be it is because i did far much hunt than pvp battle) it would help to raise quicker the hunt at higher level.
- give more skill point in victory, remove the cap in hunt when you asked for assistance.(*)
but keep in mind that since your post, I am sure there is more player that will prefer to loose and raise more skill point instead of rushing the combat level.
anyway, if a player choose a slow way to develop his character, I think it is fair to accept that his character should be better.
just one thing to finish, is there really that much player at level 2 or 3 with a high faction level ? are they that numerous to bother you ? how many char I saw reach level 5 with just level 2 or 3 in their only faction ?
(*) personnaly, i would liketo see something that help you to win point in other factions in pvp, but i think we are forbidden to ask such kind of things. | How about top strategist list?
THe list will contain:
Best win:lose ratio for the week or month(hunt and pvp should be separated). And all of them who got a rank there will get 5 faction points... so winners will be as strong as losers, and they advanced at levels...
There will be a list for each level. | for Karsot:
this is the main problem of this game: XP is a malus, not bonus.
Not when it comes to thieving. You'd want to put in as much level gap between you and the player you're ambushing. But of course, there's also the issue of Monks. But I haven't really seen much of those so I couldn't really tell if combat level superiority is of any use in ambushes...
for Viconia:
That's true. Problem is the losing style is "infectious", if uncheck, someone and eventually more on your same high combat level do the same thing, who is the vicitim?
Faction point farming by losing hunts is only possible at very low levels. And throwing away guild points just to avoid gaining combat levels is not a very efficient way of improving your hero because in the end you will need to win in order to gain those guild points. Why put it off for later when you can do it now, eh? Also, Mercenary guild has a reputation system that rewards you by giving quests more often if you succeed in your quests. One quest every 20 minute if your reputation is 10...
if this style goes unchecked, people, including high lvl ones will do the same and force more people to join, and you will either lose every time pvp, or do the same. so, you wish to hide and there's nowhere to hide as it can be "contagious".
You'll have more chance to gain faction points by assisting in hunts than by intentionally losing them. There were times when I see that hunt assist button lit up more than twice between mercenary quests. Bottome line: it's not as "infectious" as you think it is. And I'm not "hiding". Faction points aren't everything in this game. They're focusing on one aspect of development, I'm focusing on another. ;) | hi grusharaburas
:)
You'll have more chance to gain faction points by assisting in hunts than by intentionally losing them. There were times when I see that hunt assist button lit up more than twice between mercenary quests. Bottome line: it's not as "infectious" as you think it is.
1. yes, interms of frequency, you may get twice as frequent to assist, that is during peak time of player numbers(you are limited to the same level and location vs no limit when losing intentionally). In addition to limited time frame, clicking to join is very competitive as a side effect, not to mention the AFK people in joint game vs your more controllable solo losing. Overall, you get perhaps twice as frequent FSP gain by assist, at the cost of being quick to grab all the opportunities.
2. in terms of effect, max FSP is 0.25 per assist, losing gives max of 0.5 FSP, at least twice as much.
3. losers can assist, too
Bottome line: it can be quite as "infectious" as I think it is. | grusharaburas
1. Regarding to other guilds
Yes I agree, you have to win to gain improvement in guilid level. And that is great!
And this mechanism is what we all want to apply to hunting too, you have to win to gain FSP.
I would imagine losers only lose to hunt but always win for guild quests.
2. most importantly, losers don't gain xp, allowing them to have more "space" to win guild quests in the same combat level. as Karsot pointed out, they avoid the malus of xp effectively
3. regarding to merc quests reputation, the max difference is 40 min vs 20 min for success, 20 min is really of little impact, think about your rest time, travel time, and hunt and assit time in between, I would rather prefer 40 min as reputation of 40. Perhaps another story when worst reputation gives 1 day interval...
4. lastly, the higher faction skill gives loser advantage to win guild quests. | my bad in 127
as reputation of 40
reputation of 0 | Grusharaburas, lets calculate FSP.
You have combat level 6 and you don't rush though levels, so you should be a powerful player and you have
50.37 + 90.22 + 20.12 + 50.22 + 168.67 + 50.15 + 50.12 = 479.87 FSP
(I think this is normal amount, i.e. you are not weak)
Now lets look how powerful is this player
https://www.lordswm.com/pl_info.php?id=4385827
He has
160.02 + 90.24 + 56.21 + 280.64 + 280.04 = 867.15 FSP
So, the player, who played only 2 months and 2 weeks has almost TWICE more faction skill points than you have and did it in almost TWICE shorter time than you (you play this game 4 months).
And he has only combat level 1, so if he will decide to gain experience then he will be much more powerful than you (until then his Hunter Guild level also will be much higher than yours, I'm sure).
We can also measure TIME by Laborers' guild:
Ethereality: Laborers' guild: 4 (911) +589
Grusharaburas: Laborers' guild: 4 (1034) +466
So, even in this "time" measurement Ethereality have played this game shorter than you, but became twice more powerful than you (I mean FSP).
So, why the hell you still defend such players, who gain so much FSP by losing battles (actually those "battles" shouldn't be called battles, because there is just a diplomatic meeting of tiny monsters and intentional losing vs them AND gaining a huge bonus: 0.4-0.5 FSP and no XP)?
Just answer one question: don't you think that 1st combat level player (who never won any hard battle and lost 99% battles, which were very easy to win) shouldn't have the same amount of FSP as the best level 8 players? | 139:
Let's keep calculating:
I'll bring myself as an example: 946 points of laborers' guild in 3 months and 1 week of play as time frame. So I've spent roughly the same amount of hours ( counted as laborers' guild points ) in this game as Ethereality ( though over a span of a few more weeks cause my real life doesn't allow me to play a lot anymore during weekdays ). During that amount of time i got 1037.14 FSP ( all as a wizard ). So in terms of FSP i have become more powerful than Ethereality by winning ( according to your theory ), not to mention i did this by having about 1000% more fun in the process.
And btw, despite what you may think, getting experience "later" is not really easy, after combat level 8. Most players that reach CL 8 got faction skill somewhere around 6-7. The loser that tries to get from 8->9 with faction skill 9 instead of 6-7 will do it like 5-10% faster , yet he lost x% more time to get to that stage, with x>>10. He will get fast to combat level 6-7 if he wants, but you can get CL 7 in 1 month no matter what way you play anyway.
The only benefit such a playstyle can get is getting records on the lower combat level hunting tables and maybe winning lower combat level tournaments to get some diamonds. Regarding the second I would pretty much prefer to work a few hours overtime in my job to earn 50euro to buy the diamonds rather than spend a few months losing to maybe win the tournament later".
Of course gaining ANY benefit by intentionally losing, as you say, should not be the case and there is a really easy way to do this: give experience and FSP a linear function relation rather than a boolean that is now. Something like (experience gained when losing)= b * (FSP gained when losing) where b can vary depending on the type of fight ( PvP, hunt, MG, ambush etc ). | for Robai:
Ethereality: Laborers' guild: 4 (911) +589
Grusharaburas: Laborers' guild: 4 (1034) +466
Dude, I spend at least 8 hours in front of the computer at work every work day. My boss is breathing down my neck all the time. Do you think I'd risk my job by doing hunts or quests? The most that I could ever do with the office computer is use 45 seconds to login to my account and enroll every hour. I don't even get a chance to logout. I just close the browser.
Let's do some more calculations. Look at Etheriality's combat logs. The most he can ever manage is 3 battles per hour (15 minute full recovery after losing is a pain). Look at my combat logs. I've managed 5 battles per hour when I'm really into it. I could do even more if I'm really lucky. But I don't spend that much time playing the game. Too many damned distractions on the internet. If we put in the same amount of time and focus into the game do you think he'll catch up to the guild points and faction points I'm gaining every hour? I don't think so. Even if he starts adapting my own style of efficient play I will always be ahead of him in terms of guild points because I started them early. | More mathematics!
Etheriality: 2278 battles : 867 fsp = .380 fsp/battle
Grusharaburas: 1247 battles : 479 fsp = .384 fsp/battle
I'd say I'm not doing too shabby. I'm actually ahead by .004 fsp/battle. XD | for Jabbar:
I'll bring myself as an example: 946 points of laborers' guild in 3 months and 1 week of play as time frame
During that amount of time i got 1037.14 FSP
See? During similar amount of time level 1 player got similar amount of FSP as level 9 player! This exactly what I'm talking about!
In terms of Laborers' guild you have got FSP a bit (only a bit!) faster:
Jabbar: 1037.14 FSP / 946 = 1.096 FSP per 1 LG point
Ethereality: 867.15 FSP / 911 = 0.952 FSP per 1 LG point
In terms of actual real life time (and no matter how much you actually played) you were SLOWER:
Jabbar: 1037.14 FSP / 101 days = 10.27 FSP per day
Ethereality: 867.15 FSP / 76 days = 11.41 FSP per day
(BTW, Ethereality got 13.34 FSP since my last post, i.e. in about 12 hours)
So, whatever the measurement of time, we get the same conclusion:
this level 1 player got similar amount of FSP as level 9 player!
WOW!
I didn't think that Ethereality is as powerful as level 9 players. But now I think so (Jabbar is a good example).
And btw, despite what you may think, getting experience "later" is not really easy, after combat level 8
This means that Ethereality soon will be much more powerful than the best level 9-10 players!
The only benefit such a playstyle can get is getting records on the lower combat level hunting tables and maybe winning lower combat level tournaments to get some diamonds.
Getting records and winning tournaments is one of the main goals, isn't it?
Getting fun is, of course, the main goal. But you will have no fun when such players will easily beat all your records or win all tournaments. Also no fun for players, who donate this game, because they will lose vs such players (and their records will be beaten).
So, anybody still voting "yes" for giving big amount FSP to losers?
give experience and FSP a linear function relation rather than a boolean that is now
Yes, this is one of the solutions, at least it would be better than it is now.
But I prefer to get NOTHING if I lose (read 120th post for more details).
The best solution is this: faction level shouldn't be bigger than combat level (read 13th post for more details). | | Grusharaburas, I asked you a question in 129th post. Please answer it. | for Robai:
So, why the hell you still defend such players, who gain so much FSP by losing battles (actually those "battles" shouldn't be called battles, because there is just a diplomatic meeting of tiny monsters and intentional losing vs them AND gaining a huge bonus: 0.4-0.5 FSP and no XP)?
Just answer one question: don't you think that 1st combat level player (who never won any hard battle and lost 99% battles, which were very easy to win) shouldn't have the same amount of FSP as the best level 8 players?
Personally? I don't care. If he worked hard for all those points then he deserves them. And by "hard work" I mean spending as much battles and time as the best to get there. You put too much importance on "winning" as a statistic. For power gamers, "winning" or "losing" is irrelevant as long is it furthers your ultimate goal of becoming the strongest player in the very end. Etheriality has my full support.
But I prefer to get NOTHING if I lose (read 120th post for more details).
Personal preference that had nothing to do with game balance.
for Jabbar:
The hell? 1037 points gained in 2118 battles... that's like .489 points per battle... I am not worthy to stand in your presence... | "In terms of actual real life time (and no matter how much you actually played) you were SLOWER"
That means absolutely nothing, the fact that Ethereality has more time/day to play compared to me doesn't make his playstyle better. What matters is FSP gained/ time spent and my method gives 10% more FSP.
"This means that Ethereality soon will be much more powerful than the best level 9-10 players!"
This kind of thinking is flawed in general. Power is measured by the ability to achieve goals of the game( for more about this read below ) and beat stuff. What Ethereality has at the moment is "potential for power". His actual power is ridiculous, he can't really beat anything a level 5 player with 1 x faction level 3 can do.
If Ethereality starts winning fights today nonstop ( doing only PvM - if he only does PvP he will just end up with losing all his "work" so far ) he needs around 2-3 months to get to level 9. And by that time, he will be weaker than any given combat level 9 player since the CL 9 player will be able to kill more stuff. The measure of power when doing PvM is what amounts of monsters you can kill. And of course in PvM only your current faction skill points matter, the other factions are simply giving 0 benefit. Relative power compared to level only matters when doing PvP. And then only your primary faction at the moment of the game counts a lot.
"Getting records and winning tournaments is one of the main goals, isn't it?"
Getting records is one of the main goals in the game for sure. But getting global records is far more important that getting low level records. Global records give fame, level records give lower amounts of fame. When someone holds the server record kill of monster X he definitely has more fame than the guy that has the most kills of gremlins on combat level 2. Compare yourself with Kusika or Uliss in that term: You have a lot more records on hunts on level 6 compared to both of them ( or anyone else ), but noone knows you unless you make a post on the forum. Every knows though the top hunters of the server. And you can't be among them without experience.
Winning tournaments i agree, but I'll wait till your prefered-style of play guy wins a tournament to comment on that, because there are other parameters than faction level that matter in a tournament ( such as matchups - luck/morale occurences etc ). Tournaments cannot be won in theory, when a loser manages to win a tournament i might find a reason for all this thing. But this is the one real goal a loser can have and in this game i can find several more goals that people can get. Here are some examples:
- Be in the top 100 experience list.
- Be a well-known thief that everyone really doesn't want to meet in an ambush cause he will probably lose ( like Egorovy for example ).
- Get a lot of money.
- Be able to play a lot of factions by changing at will, having a lot of FSP on all of them to be competitive ( that's another real reason why to lose early, to be able to switch later ).
- And of course the biggest thing of all, fun. | For power gamers, "winning" or "losing" is irrelevant as long is it furthers your ultimate goal of becoming the strongest player in the very end. Etheriality has my full support.
In this game the main problem is that losing is the best strategy to become the strongest player.
If Ethereality decided to start gaining experience it would be very easy for him now. He would win all battles against level 1-2 (even some level 3) players now, when he is level 3 he would win all battles against levels 3-4 and so on. He wouldn't even need any arts or mini-arts! In addition to experience he would still get lots of FSP and when he is level 6 he would be much more powerful than Grusharaburas.
Mercenary quests and hunts will be also much easier for him compared to other players (non-loosers). So, he will increase his merc and hunt guild points very quickly.
I think the best solution is to make training possible as it was suggested before. But it should be for free. So those who have lots of patience and work hard could improve their FSP not by losing but by winning. And in training it would be possible to increase FSP for players of any level, not only low levels.
Now you admire Ethereality for his "hard work". Training would be even harder work because instead of losing (which is very easy) you would have to win! | So, your answer is:
YES, you agree that players, who NEVER fought HARD battles and lost 99% battles (which were VERY EASY to win) should be able to be as powerful as the best high combat level players.
And you see no problem with game rules here? I.e. you think that rules of this game shouldn't be changed?
Or you just don't care?
Etheriality has my full support
By supporting him you support losing battles intentionally and you think that a game where losing battles intentionally is a way to get power is a good game?
If you admit that losing is a very good way to increase FSP, then why you don't lose battles? Don't want to be a loser? :) | | post 138 was for Grusharaburas | for Robai:
YES, you agree that players, who NEVER fought HARD battles and lost 99% battles (which were VERY EASY to win) should be able to be as powerful as the best high combat level players.
And you see no problem with game rules here? I.e. you think that rules of this game shouldn't be changed?
Or you just don't care?
Losing battles with the intention of getting .49 faction points takes finesse. I have to admit that he's an artist. XD
By supporting him you support losing battles intentionally and you think that a game where losing battles intentionally is a way to get power is a good game?
If you admit that losing is a very good way to increase FSP, then why you don't lose battles? Don't want to be a loser? :)
I don't intentionally lose because that's not my preferred method of play and because I believe that my way is more efficient and fun!
And besides, it's not a good idea for people like me with no access to diamond upgrades to be hanging around level 6. Better to camp at level 8 where there's no diamond upgrade to worry about. Muwahahahaha! XD |
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